news:slrnc2to36.18c.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem...
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 02:23:22 +0000 (UTC),
> Uncle Davey <noway@jose.com> wrote:
> >
> > news:slrnc2tjks.1ak.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem...
> >> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 00:29:13 +0000 (UTC),
> >> Uncle Davey <noway@jose.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > news:slrnc2stmj.170.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem...
> >> >> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 18:02:49 +0000 (UTC),
> >> >> Uncle Davey <noway@jose.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > news:hens209vg2g72vedir0cpcdeuauumfssak@4ax.com...
> >> >> >> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:00:37 +0000 (UTC), "Uncle Davey"
> >> >> >> <noway@jose.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >U?ytkownik "Mujin" <baka@hornedking.com> napisa? w wiadomo?ci
> >> >> >> >news:bgfs20li5pnobgeaub6l0bfdpvt2fkuh2h@4ax.com...
> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:41:14 +0000 (UTC), "Uncle Davey"
> >> >> >> >> <noway@jose.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >U?ytkownik "Mujin" <baka@hornedking.com> napisa? w wiadomo?ci
> >> >> >> >> >news:2ttq2099jts2u65hin31nbethpibnv30qv@4ax.com...
> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 01:13:35 +0000 (UTC), Cheezits
> >> >> >> >> >> <cheezits32@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >[etc.]
> >> >> >> >> >> >> He said "Alexey, you didn't translate what I said". To
> > which
> >> > the
> >> >> >> >> >> >> translator said. "No, I translated what you OUGHT to
have
> >> > said."
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sometimes good translation is like that.
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >That is not good translation. That is lying.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> That's not any kind of translation, actually. It's the
kind
> > of
> >> >> >> >> >> distortion that can lead to a professional association
> > certified
> >> >> >> >> >> translator suddenly becoming an uncertified translator, if
you
> >> > take
> >> >> > my
> >> >> >> >> >> meaning. Clients aren't paying for paraphrasing.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >In what country?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> In any country in which I have worked as a translator.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >You obviously haven't heard of 'dynamic equivalence'.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I certainly have - but paraphrasing isn't dynamic equivalence.
> > In
> >> >> >> >> your "parable" the intended message of the client was
drastically
> >> >> >> >> changed as a result of paraphrase. The point of dynamic
> > equivalence
> >> >> >> >> is to replace highly idiomatic or culturally specific (and
> > therefore
> >> >> >> >> poorly interchangeable) terms with terms which, while having
> >> > different
> >> >> >> >> literal meanings, carry roughly the same nuance. Thus, one
would
> >> > not
> >> >> >> >> translate the Japanese term "kusojiji" as "stinky grandfather"
in
> >> >> >> >> English - although the literal meaning is obviously intended
as
> > an
> >> >> >> >> insult, it doesn't have any particular meaning. "Old fart"
would
> > be
> >> >> >> >> closer to the intended meaning - and of course would not be
> >> > translated
> >> >> >> >> as "furui he" in Japanese since it doesn't really mean
anything
> >> >> >> >> (although the intent is obvious).
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Naturally, dynamic equivalence can be applied to larger
> >> > constructions
> >> >> >> >> as well, but the intent of the original author should never be
> >> >> >> >> changed. This is why interpreters often serve as cultural
> >> > consultants
> >> >> >> >> for their clients - cutting off inappropriate modes of
> > communication
> >> >> >> >> before they start. I have on more than one occasion advised
> > clients
> >> >> >> >> on the most culturally appropriate approach to a meeting, and
of
> >> >> >> >> course I always use dynamic equivalence to properly render the
> >> >> >> >> client's idioms where I think it's appropriate.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> But actually changing the client's meaning? That would be a
lie.
> >> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> >> K
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >In this case, it involved the use of higher skills. Would you
> > rather
> >> > lie
> >> >> > or
> >> >> >> >be an accessory to murder?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I would rather stop interpreting and recommend to the client he
> >> >> >> moderate his language as the terms he is using are likely to
provoke
> > a
> >> >> >> violent reaction in his audience than violate my contract (and
> >> >> >> possibly commit fraud depending on local laws) by presenting a
> >> >> >> translation that is not true to both the literal meaning and
intent
> > of
> >> >> >> the original.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> But then I require clients to provide me with a precis of
> >> >> >> presentations/speeches ahead of time, followed by a consultation
on
> >> >> >> appropriate modes of delivery for the audience. I don't
personally
> >> >> >> know a translator who doesn't follow this procedure for public
> >> >> >> speaking engagements.
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> K
> >> >> >
> >> >> > This guy worked for the factory. What could he do?
> >> >>
> >> >> Since your little parable has nothing at all to do with the lies and
> >> >> distortions produced by Philip Johnson or spread by Jason Gastrich,
> > what
> >> >> difference does it make?
> >> >>
> >> >> Well, I know. Christians like yourself fear the truth. You fear
that
> >> >> those foolish enough and small enough in self-worth that they
actually
> >> > look
> >> >> up to you as some sort of spiritual guide will find out that
evolution
> > is
> >> >> not anti-god, and that evolutionary researchers and theorists do in
> > fact
> >> >> accept what they write.
> >> >>
> >> >> In a way, I feel sorry for people like you, Jason and Johnson.
You're
> >> > world
> >> >> view is dying, and I guess like the guy at the factory, rather than
> > facing
> >> >> reality, you will spread lies and distortions, because that's all
that
> > is
> >> >> left to you. Science started leaving your type behind centuries
ago,
> > and
> >> > I
> >> >> figure there's not much more than a century or so left before the
few
> >> >> Biblical literalists are curiousities on the same order as the
Amish.
> >> >>
> >> >> But make no mistake, Davey, you are producing apologetics for lies.
> > The
> >> >> early Christian martyrs didn't pretend to worship Roman gods so as
not
> > to
> >> > be
> >> >> executed. They had the convictions of their beliefs.
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Aaron Clausen
> >> >>
> >> >> tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Since when was Amish a major force in US politics?
> >>
> >> Evasion noted. Don't you ever get tired of running?
> >
> > I just made a point which you evaded by saying 'evasion noted'.
> >
> > You then go on about morals and ethics and honesty, and all the time I'm
> > wondering whether anyone can make an ironymeter tough enough to
withstand
> > the extreme conditions imposed by Mr Clausen.
>
> Again you question my integrity. Do you have any reason to doubt my word?
> And even if I were the biggest liar on this newsgroup, how would that make
> Jason and Philip Johnson any less liars?
>
> But why are trying to impune my character, Davey? When I have been
> dishonest with you?
Dishonesty is something you are very sensitive too when you perceive it on
our side, and virtually oblivious to when it happens on your side.
Now I am basically an intellectually honest person, so I have to admit that
almost no-one, including myself, is free of bias. But you still rant on
about lies every time one of us does something you don't like, and overlook
your own side's dishonesties, such as Lenny saying I haven't answered his
questions when all but the coral one was answered the best I can.
I think that makes you less intellectually honest than you think you are,
and it might be good for you to take a look in the mirror too.
I say this in a friendly way, for your own good as well as mine.
Uncle Davey
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