In <bpqd7q$o04$1@news.onet.pl> Piorokrat wrote:
>
> Uzytkownik "Nevermore" <burned@thestake.net> napisal w wiadomosci
> news:20031123002923658-0500@news.valley.net...
>> In <bpngrl$fin$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl> Uncle Davey wrote:
>> >
>> > ci news:bpnfmh$1qhu5f$1@ID-140581.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> >> "Piorokrat" tries the bait 'n switch:
>> >> > "Zsarnok" wrote:
>> >> > > Nevermore wrote:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > <snip>
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > We're Witches. We haven't done anything wrong. Why would
>> >> > > > we need salvation - free or otherwise? Why would we need to
>> >> > > > believe in something that doesn't appear to produce results
>> >> > > > when we do things
>> >> that
>> >> > > > produce tangible results whether we lack faith in them or
>> >> > > > not?
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Nevermore
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Yeah. What Nevermore said. <w>
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Zsarnok
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> > So if you for example cast a spell, you achieve what you want
>> >> > whether
>> > you
>> >> > even believe in it or not?
>> >> >
>> >> Is that what Nevermore stated, ye of blind faith?
>> >> Do you actually expect to have _magic_ explained to you?
>> >> Bwahahaha.
>> >>
>> >> > That's handy.
>> >> >
>> >> It's also sophist of you, Davie.
>> >>
>> >> > Uncle Davey, you're all pretty rich, then?
>> >> >
>> >> Prayed for gold and gotten it, Davie?
>> >> Depends on what you mean by "rich" and what
>> >> Nevermore may mean by "tangible results" doesn't
>> >> it? Next, you'll be asking 'what tangible results', eh?
>> >> Or, will you try to dodge predictablilty and take
>> >> another tack - like not replying to this post? Heh.
>> >>
>> >> T.N.
>> >
>> > You see, Trevor, I don't believe that God wants me to be rich
>> > without working for it. Why would He have given me the earnings
>> > potential for it only to go to waste after a lottery win?
>> >
>> > That means, I couldn't pray for gold with any faith.
>> >
>> > I'd know I was asking amiss.
>> >
>> > But from what Nevermore said, what she does produces results
>> > whether or not she lacks faith in them. Hence, if I believed that,
>> > I could make a wealth charm, I could bury the talisman of Mercury
>> > under my office, and bingo, early retirement, even though I don't
>> > believe in that stuff.
>> >
>> > Uncle Davey, I don't think I've extrapolated this point illogically.
>> >
>> >
>> Davey, for the record, I'm a guy (and yes, I'm still a Witch not a
>> wizard).
>
> I don't get it. How can you be a guy and a witch. Girl ones are
> witches, boy ones are wizards. Every kid knows that.
>
> So how can you tell me you're a witch and a guy at the same time?
>
>> I'm also pretty well off but there is little point in bending magick
>> to making money when you can use what is inherent in magick to skip
>> right over the cash and get the things which cash can buy (and many
>> more things it can't).
>
> "I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love"?
>
Something like that:)
>>
>> You still haven't addressed my real question which was simply this -
>> why would witches need salvation if we haven't done anything wrong?
>>
>> Nevermore (proud owner of some of the most environmentally damaging
>> and expensive vehicles on this planet)
>
> I drive a Grand Cherokee myself, which is a gas guzzler.
>
> You ask what we have done wrong, I would put it in to one sentence.
> We have failed to give God the glory due unto his name.
> That's all humankind, witches and wizards and muggles as well.
>
> Uncle Davey
>
>
If that's your one sentence bottom line then I find it utterly lacking.
I think the Witches have a deep appreciation for life, the planet, and
the Universe and I can't imagine that if an omnipotent God actually
existed he would be in the least bit offended by our ambivalence
toward's his day.
I suspect the notion that a bottom line deficit in God worship counts as
trouble is simply a device to maintain a perpetual hold on potential
members of Christianity.
It's a completely circular argument:
Q: Why do I need salvation if I haven't done anything wrong?
A: Not worshiping God and not requesting salvation is itself wrong!
Q: What's the minimum amount of worship I can slip in to cover myself?
A: Thoughts of trying to short a glorious creator his due are really
sinful!
On and on and on...
Nevermore
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