On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 07:32:40 -0400, Awake <Awake@invalid.com> wrote:
>In article <l4fca4hqimgjd7mt9et5lsb5j1u2jvj3pb@4ax.com>, 4s00th
><4s00th@hushmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:01:20 -0400, Awake <Awake@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <0001HW.C4CA6CCE01CC350DB01AD9AF@news.newscene.com>,
>> >Morpheus <Morpheus@dreamland.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:31:21 -0700, Grant wrote
>> >> (in article <Grant-me-that-1408082@Grant.Grant>):
>> >>
>> >> > In article <pgh4a4dcuen1u1vn5667cfsedqqqdijndo@4ax.com>, 4s00th
>> >> > <4s00th@hushmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> I howl at the moon on a semi-regular basis -- an unfortunate
>> >> >> side-effect of Major Depression, Episodic; Anxiety Disorder with Panic
>> >> >> Attacks & Borderline Personality Disorder. It's nice that some of you
>> >> >> have taken the time to respond. I try so very hard to be together, but
>> >> >> it just doesn't always work. I mean, you take your medicine, and you
>> >> >> takes your chances. Although I have to think that my illness is
>> >> >> probably in remission at present, but it has left its toll on me, and
>> >> >> I wear out far too soon for my own liking -- and I can never forget
>> >> >> that it could turn deadly if it does come out of remission. FTR, it's
>> >> >> not likely to be fatal as long as I take my medicine and seek medical
>> >> >> help when it starts acting up -- but it can be; and it's definitely
>> >> >> fatal if left to its own devices.
>> >> >
>> >> > Looks like somebody threw the psychological book at you! Should have
>> >> > ducked.
>> >> > Don't get me wrong. Psychological treatment helps most of the time but
>> >> > I wonder how much of it is by accident.
>> >> > I think "borderline" means they don't know but have to make something
>> >> > up to put in your chart.
>> >> > Don't let yourself be branded and limited by fancy labels shrinks use
>> >> > to discuss what they see but don't really understand. Those things are
>> >> > not *you*. Sure we all have some psychological problems. Nobodys
>> >> > perfect. I think you can see some of that here! LOL But those problems
>> >> > are not *all* of who we are. Trying to be good and do good is the best
>> >> > of who we can be and that is what we should remember most about
>> >> > ourselves. You are a good person. That counts for me more than anything
>> >> > else and it should be the same for you.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Ah, well, no one promised it would be easy. Although I have to say
>> >> >> that I have been delighted to see that the Make-A-Wish foundation has
>> >> >> been active with children who have this illness in common with me. And
>> >> >> it's been nice to see more good press come out of it -- the NFL
>> >> >> currently has one of my fellows in remission, probably taking the same
>> >> >> treatments that I have to take!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyway, I just wanted to thank people for responding.
>> >> >
>> >> > I think nobody who did did it for thanks. We humans should stick
>> >> > together!
>> >> >
>> >> >> Oh, and I actually had a really nice visit with the friend that I stay
>> >> >> with when I go for my treatments -- it's a bit far for me to drive up
>> >> >> and back on the same day, so that makes things go a little smoother.
>> >> >> She was doing better than she had in years -- a new boyfriend has her
>> >> >> feeling better about herself, and after the harsh treatment from her
>> >> >> brain-damaged husband, she deserves it. Um, he literally is
>> >> >> brain-damaged, and although he can be a nice guy, he turned into the
>> >> >> asshole from hell who blamed everyone else for every problem he ever
>> >> >> had. She stayed with him far longer than she should have, but it was
>> >> >> her decision to make, not mine.
>> >> >
>> >> > I saw some brain damaged people in the hospital I was in. Really sad.
>> >> > Scary too.
>> >> >
>> >> >> -- 4s00th@hushmail.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If you send email, I will reply to it here at asbl
>> >> >> (without showing your email addy)
>> >> >> unless you ask me not to.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm sorry I didn't reply to your other posts I meant to. I have time
>> >> > problems with work and family and church. I will try to do better.
>> >> >
>> >> > You asked in a different post why someone who used to post here was
>> >> > attacked and why his name is being used to attack people now. I could
>> >> > tell you in an unbiased way because I didn't know anything about it
>> >> > when I cam back to the fort and asked why he was being attacked with
>> >> > such impossible things and was immediately attacked for being him. Then
>> >> > I went back in time in the groups with a long retention server and
>> >> > studied what had happened. The people who were involved never did that
>> >> > so I have a different and more detached and objective perspective. I
>> >> > could tell you but there are two problems with doing it. In public it
>> >> > might inflame things but it allows for peer review. I could do it in
>> >> > email but private communications can't be part of a larger discussion
>> >> > so you couldn't be sure I was right. Let me know if you want this from
>> >> > me and how.
>> >> >
>> >> > Please remember people here care about you and want you to feel better.
>> >> > Just because people don't post about it all the time doesn't mean you
>> >> > are not in our thoughts and prayers. You are.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Poor Grant. "Attacked" by the truth. I'm sure Grant sees the truth as a
>> >> threat.
>> >
>> >Can you communicate something a little less ridiculous? He shows the
>> >opposite. He graciously acknowledged that other, possibly dissenting,
>> >opinions should be heard, while you try to make that into a weakness
>> >because you would never do that. His comments are perfectly reasonable,
>> >while yours are quite the opposite. Why are you trying to promulgate a
>> >lie, and to someone to whom it can't possibly succeed?
>> >Is it because if *you* tried to answer 4s00th's question yourself, he,
>> >having seen some of what happened himself, would know you lied? Coward.
>> >
>> >> Interesting that Grant feels qualified to explain what 'borderline' means.
>> >>
>> >> Had some psychological training, I guess. You don't suppose he's a
>> >> Psychologist!!!!
>> >
>> >Grant never said he was a psychologist, just a grateful beneficiary of
>> >their extensive services. It is a reasonable likelihood that an
>> >intelligent college graduate would acquire a more than significant
>> >amount of information about psychology under those circumstances.
>> >Didn't his mildly cynical viewpoint express just that to you? His
>> >opinions about psychology are common to laymen, such as you yourself
>> >have expressed. They are something Y Not never expressed. Grant has
>> >expressed anger in some of his posts. A psychologist would be unlikely
>> >to do so. Y Not did not. This, for Y Not, does not necessarily a
>> >psychologist make, but unlike what this does for Grant, it does not
>> >rule it out.
>> >
>> >> Another brick in the wall.
>> >
>> >In your mind. Unfortunately, the wall you hide behind also hides your
>> >intelligence, what there may be of it, from us.
>> >
>> >> If I were a person who was feeling shaky, I'd stay as far away from this
>> >> character (Grant aka Y-Not aka Referee aka Tolson aka High aka Gemstone
>> >> aka
>> >> ...the list goes on) as possible. Ask him about a fellow named Mac.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Why didn't you continue the list of people you have accused of being Y
>> >Not? Afraid of something? Coward? Liar by omission? You were so
>> >accused, weren't you? Wasn't 4s00th? Wasn't Mac? Wasn't I?
>> >
>> >Don't you see how amusingly ironic it is that *you*, formerly accused
>> >(when you were Duey) of being Y Not, should try to convince someone who
>> >was also accused of being Y Not, and is currently being so accused,
>> >that someone else is Y Not, who just as obviously isn't? And that if it
>> >were true, it would be a bad thing, when just being accused of being
>> >another person is in itself is a very bad attack on a poster's
>> >security? In view of all this, how can a sane person be expected to
>> >believe you? Or are you laboring under the mistaken assumption that
>> >4s00th isn't sane?
>> >
>> >He may not need to ask him about Mac. Grant wrote about what happened
>> >to Mac in a post to you here in the Fort. It should still be on your
>> >server. Why don't you repost it? More cowardice?
>> >
>> >Why is it you need to try to stop people from being comforted by
>> >others? Why do you need to do this to 4s00th, and in his thread? What
>> >do you have against him? Is it because you still think *he* is Y Not?
>> >When Grant wrote similar thoughts to 4s00th before, you expressed
>> >approval of it, yet here now you do the opposite. Are you trying to
>> >make up for your lapse into humanity that prompted your other post, by
>> >again opposing such things now? Are you so much in need of comforting,
>> >yourself, you have to jealously deny it to others in need?
>> >
>> >Why can you not let others, who are vastly more intelligent than
>> >yourself, read and understand for themselves what other posters write?
>> >Why do you have to try to convince them that what they see and
>> >understand, who can do that much more accurately than you could ever
>> >do, isn't so? Who are you really trying to convince? Yourself. The
>> >mentally disturbed need to do this because at some level of their
>> >awareness, they know they are too far from reality, and need other
>> >people to see things as twisted as they do, so they can feel more sane.
>> >And therefore more secure. This can be most easily seen in cult
>> >leaders, who take this to its ultimate end. The world is fortunate that
>> >you could never rise/sink to that level. It requires consistency and
>> >intelligence, of which you lack both.
>> >
>> >You did not understand Grant's last post to you, which should be no
>> >gigantic surprise to anyone. What he expressed to you was he did not
>> >think you were a moron, but you were just wrong. You could have seen
>> >the complement, if you weren't something of a moron. Does that mean
>> >Grant was wrong?
>> >
>> >Are you now going to be true to your twisted monomaniacal world view,
>> >and accuse me of being Y Not solely because I have criticized you, and
>> >you have nothing with which you can intelligently dispute any of it
>> >because I am correct? Will you further endeavor to convince others of
>> >your insanity?
>> >
>> >
>> >To 4s00th:
>> >Please disregard Morpheus' disruptive intrusion here. I have taken him
>> >to task on your behalf. (Grant doesn't need defending.) And because I
>> >was amused by the irony of his tactics.
>> >Most of us here care about others such that an egocentric disturbed
>> >person, such as Morpheus, can never understand. I care. Very much.
>> >About anyone who is in pain. About you. This is why I am posting. Grant
>> >has expressed some wise thoughts to you. I second them.
>> >
>> >
>> >I'm Awake. Morpheus has sung himself to another dream world.
>>
>> And I was so hoping that people weren't going to start this whole
>> flamin' discussion again! Whatever Y-Not did to you guys, I can only
>> say that he was nice to me at a time when I needed someone to be nice
>> to me. As a former mental health Case Worker, I can say that his
>> knowledge of psychology indicated that he was, at the very least, in
>> the field in some capacity. Perhaps, as some have suggested, he was on
>> the other side of the couch -- at any rate, his knowledge was much
>> greater than a layman could reasonably be expected to have. As to many
>> of the things I've heard said about Y-Not, I can only say that I've
>> never been in a position to evaluate the truth of those statements. I
>> have deliberately avoided the in-fighting and whatnot here because,
>> frankly, it made me somewhat ashamed of us. Most of it seemed so
>> superficial and silly. And unfortunately, as some have noted, I tend
>> to take people at face value. I am basically very honest in everything
>> I post -- and I expect the same in others despite the fact that I so
>> often see people who are less than honest.
>
>Honesty is easy when you make it a habit. Y Not posted something about
>it. I printed it out and framed it. I don't assume I was the only one
>who did it. I think I'll repost it some day.
>
>Y Not made two statements about psychology that Morpheus, in one or
>more of his known incarnations, was moved to correct, that in all
>likelihood contributed to his opinion that Y Not wasn't a psychologist.
>One involved the definition of pedophilia, and the other involved the
>differences between deductive and inductive reasoning.
>In reality, they were both right. Morpheus was correct, by the limited,
>and under-researched, strict *current* definitions of the terms, and Y
>Not was correct in his deeper understanding, but from significantly out
>of date information, thereby displaying his age, and how long it had
>been since he was a student. He may have known of the updated
>information but may have been tripped up by old habits in writing about
>the subjects. This tends more to confirm that he was a psychologist,
>rather than to rule it out. A fake would have used the current
>information.
I argue with the trolls on asbl about the definition of "pedophilia"
all the damn time! Of course, in general we do not think of the
paraphilia's as illnesses unless they are cauing distress in the
individual or they create situations where community resources (such
as the police or Mental Health facilities) have to get involved. In
that, we are seeing a more normal approach to treatment -- we treat
what is truly bothering the patient. If they're schizophrenic and it
doesn't bother them and it doesn't cause them to create situations
that would require intervention, then we concentrate on whatever other
problems there might be!
>The inflammatory methods Morpheus uses to attack Y Not are typical of
>his antagonists. They lied, deliberately misquoted him, accused anyone
>who expressed disfavor of their destructive behavior, of being Y Not,
>even those who just posted with the same software, ignored his logical
>points, never replied to his questions, tried to make people afraid of
>him with no evidence; basically acted insane. It went way beyond
>personal dislike with them, into selfish madness. They used every
>underhanded tactic they could employ, including revealing his personal
>correspondences and personal information, while accusing him of doing
>that himself, which he didn't. In doing all this, they aided and
>abetted the trolls, giving them information and instructing them in new
>tactics they could use against all of us, which they have. The trolls
>expressed approval.
>Y Not responded with cool logic, counseling them, in defending himself,
>rather than attacking them. He even helped them with security issues
>while they are attacking him. He instructed them in how to become
>better debaters, which failed to achieve any noticeable result.
>His reasonable behavior and constant, and successful, efforts to help
>people in spite of all the harassment he received, and some of it was
>from *me* (yes, I was one of his attackers, with my previous name,
>unwilling to believe my friends were wrong about him), finally changed
>my opinion of the issue, particularly after I experienced similar
>harassment when I tried to help people myself.
>
>I don't believe any reasonable person saw a valid reason for Y Not to
>be mistreated as he was, and positively not for the other people who
>were attacked because of agreeing with some of what he wrote. There was
>no evidence for what they tried to make people believe of him.
>His antagonists would say now that I say all this because I worship
>him, because they are unable to understand objectivity. Their emotional
>orientation precludes it. I don't even like the man. That shouldn't
>hurt him; I don't think he cared about that. I think he actively
>discouraged people from liking him too much. He said some posters were
>becoming too emotionally attached to him (dependancy), which was
>detrimental to their mental health, caused by his effective counseling,
>which often happens between psychologists and and their patients. He
>said in real life practice he could transfer the patient to another
>therapist, but that couldn't be done in the Fort. He changed his
>behavior accordingly, and deliberately became a little more distant and
>aloof. It could be that some people couldn't accept that change and
>overreacted, and never could give it up.
I'm not certain I understand the idea that one can become dependent
over the Internet. Transference issues can be a genuine problem in any
real therapeutic relationship, but giving advice over the Internet or
just talking to people over the Internet is just not the same. If I
may use the following example -- one might think that my wayward one
became dependent on me, but he needed to know that someone loved him
absolutely and without conditions and would stand with him through
anything that might come up, even if he created the problem himself.
Was he dependent on me, or did he need a safe place to come back to
while he was exploring his own independence? But the two of us were
much closer than I imagine most people are on a newsgroup!
>> Grant also has been very kind to me when I've needed kindness, and I
>> agree that he tends to be suspicious of psychologists and
>> psychiatrists rather than having the type of knowledge that would
>> indicate his being in the profession. And despite what he has said
>> about Borderline Personality Disorder, I know the diagnostic criteria
>> and the behaviors that make up that criteria quite intimately -- both
>> as a Borderline and as a Case Worker who handled many difficult cases
>> involving people with Borderline Personality Disorder, and handled
>> them quite successfully. In discussing this with my PCP, he asked me
>> if I was suggesting that it takes one to deal with one -- to which I
>> responded that it certainly helped! The disorder is certainly not as
>> nebulous as he describes it. The fact is that I have never been
>> diagnosed as having BPD, but that's just a mistake in diagnosis, a
>> problem all too common in psychology and psychiatry. And the fact is
>> that I hide my symptoms quite well, but my current Psychiatrist
>> actually prefers not to list the diagnosis because of the negative
>> connotation associated with the diagnosis and the possibility of
>> interference from my insurance regarding that diagnosis. In fact, he
>> told me that he was not planning to officially diagnose me with
>> pedophilia for the same reasons. The Major Depression, Episodic and
>> Anxiety Disorder with Panic Attacks are both legitimate diagnoses
>> given the symptoms that I have had over the past 30 years.
>
>I have seen this:
>"Differential diagnosis is a royal pain!"
I was actually very good at differential diagnosis! Of course, nothing
I diagnosed was ever official until the psychiatrists that we worked
with endorsed it, but I was very gratified to find that they usually
trusted my judgment, respected my reasoning and insight and actually
appreciated my input.
It is a bit unfortunate that you tend to see diagnostic trends in
community mental health. Everyone who comes out of the hospital in a
given quarter tends to get a particular diagnosis, then the next
quarter, they've moved on and everybody coming out then gets the next
diagnosis that's become the hot thing! I'm sorry, but it's just not
really possible to diagnose someone clearly after a week in the
hospital; in my job, with regular contact with the patients, I was
constantly gaining new information into their condition and whatnot,
so that could lead to revisions of diagnosis. And it certainly helped
in terms of differential diagnosis. But the fact is that there are
several diagnoses that have so much overlap that it doesn't really
matter whether you choose on or the other!
And sometimes you just have to work with people a long time before
they feel comfortable telling you what they really think or believe!
>I think Grant was being a little generous in his diminishing the
>severity of your listed mental aliments, in order to use that as a base
>from which he could offer you cheer. A noble effort, I'm sure.
>
>In my opinion, pedophilia should be no more part of a mental health
>diagnosis than is homosexuality, or any other sexual orientation.
>However, I think most would agree it most certainly has contributed to
>the degree your disorders have troubled you.
>
>I like your Doctor, while I don't completely approve of his
>unprofessionalism in maintaining your chart accurately.
>
>> Let me see if I can explain BPD to you guys. The Borderline
>> Personality is incredibly egocentric (not egotistical, in fact
>> Borderlines tend to have feelings of worthlessness). Borderline
>> Personality Disorder is characterized by extremes -- moods often swing
>> between manic (or extremely happy and euphoric) to extreme depression;
>> the Borderline vacillates from over-valuing people with whom they are
>> in a relationship to under-valuing them -- at first, the person is
>> absolutely perfect, then cannot possibly be more imperfect. A
>> Borderline thrives on chaos. Peace and calm are intolerable, they live
>> from crisis to crisis, even if they have to create the next crisis
>> themselves by over-spending or cutting themselves or other
>> self-destructive behavior. The Borderline has an extreme fear of
>> rejection or abandonment that results in the person either being
>> extremely dependent and needy or avoiding others or intimacy with
>> others. They usually cause the rejection either by being too needy and
>> clingy or by making sure that the relationship is mostly superficial
>> or by setting their expectations so high that no one could possibly
>> meet them. Borderlines can be extremely manipulative -- everything
>> with them is a test of whether you really love them or not. And then,
>> there's the big one -- Chronic feelings of emptiness. Borderlines have
>> the distinct feeling that something is missing in themselves, that
>> they are only playing a role instead of being a real person, that deep
>> down, there's nothing there.
>
>Would you care to assign this diagnosis to some of the posters here,
>based on your observations of them? There are some...
I wouldn't presume. Too many people tend to make assumptions. I
remember a Child Psychopathology class I took in college; the
professor read out a passage from a book and the class wanted to put
the kid away -- except for me, and I thought it looked kind of bad.
However, I argued that most of the things that were in the passage
were all things that most kids went through from time to time and that
I would like more observation to determine if this was a pervasive
pattern or just a bad day. (Not that I put it that way as a student,
mind you!) It turned out that the class wanted to lock up Tom Sawyer.
I'm sure Aunt Polly would have been indignant!
>> If there are any patterns that I've noticed, men with BPD tend to be
>> avoidant and somewhat anti-social, women tend to be more dependent
>> although the higher the intelligence level, the more likely they are
>> to be avoidant and anti-social rather than dependent. BPD tends to be
>> found more frequently in survivors of childhood abuse.
>
>I assume that applies only to "real life". I wonder how they behave in
>anarchistic cyberspace? And the sufferers of other disorders as well? I
>think this area of study has been under-researched.
It's an interesting thought. The problem is that you can be whatever
you want to in cyberspace. I guess even I could be a happy person, or
at least, pretend to be one if I really tried it.
>> It was not my intention to start a flame war over the Y-Not issue. If
>> it cannot be discussed politely and civilly, then I would rather we
>> just let it lie. But, having lived through the whole Dr Denny
>> deception and having tried to negotiate a peace regarding the Defender
>> (who was very helpful to me in asbl even if he got irrational and
>> flamey far too often), I can only hope that those of us who are here
>> for the common goals of celebrating boys and our love of them without
>> harming them can put aside the unimportant disagreements so that we
>> can help each other. And, yes, I wrote that with a straight face! Far
>> too many of the arguments and disagreements and flame-wars that I've
>> seen in here over the years have been about things that really don't
>> matter. I don't mean to say that people hurting each others' feelings
>> are unimportant or don't matter -- I'm just saying that such things
>> could be resolved peacefully and with respect rather than flames.
>
>You are not to blame for anything here. Rather, you are a victim.
>Morpheus has now made it clear that he considers you to be Y Not, along
>with Grant and myself.
>That there is no logical reason for Y Not to post with more than one
>nickname, appears to be beyond his limited reasoning ability.
Well, the only person I'm sure is not Y-Not is me! But then, you're
all probably just figments of my little demented mind anyway!
>Morpheus' reply to me shows he agrees with what I wrote. We all know he
>would have argued against any of it if he could have.
>His reply to you is more evidence of his degenerating mental state,
>which he finds amusing. Please permit me to instruct him here:
>Morpheus, *all* posts are deliberate. Something that obvious shouldn't
>be a surprise to the sane. There is something else just as obvious, but
>only for the sane; no useful purpose would have been served were these
>posts of ours to have originated from the same person. Unless you
>believe it is all a plot to make you look bad. (That isn't needed.) I
>wouldn't be surprised that you would be so paranoid, with arrogant
>delusions of grandeur, to believe this, but it does serve to adequately
>explain part of your strange fixated behavior.
>
>4s00th, it is unfortunate that you have again become involved in this.
>You don't deserve it. I accept some blame for escalating this, but I
>didn't create the issue. I believe knowledge and reason can aid in
>resolving these kinds of situations, so I posted.
>Possibly you can use this as a distraction from your own troubles?
>
>I'm Awake, as we all should be to reality.
Usually I have to wait for one of the trolls on asbl to piss me off
enough that I can forget how I really feel! Brandon has been very good
about that! After a while, I just couldn't really get pissed off at
the bo0b; he's just such a caricature of a troll! But if any of those
dirtwads ever tell my wayward one -- or any other kid -- to kill
themselves again, I might have to!
Dude, much like Joshua (as played by Joseph Cross) in that great M
Night Shamylan-or-whatever movie, "I'm WIDE AWAKE."
-- 4s00th@hushmail.com
If you send email, I will reply to it here at asbl
(without showing your email addy)
unless you ask me not to.
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