>On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 01:27:00 -0600, Curly Bill
><CurlyBill@Tombstone.town> wrote:
>
>>
>>>Usenet history, in the making, or just another dull day?
>>>FTR, I am the one doing the 2:1 bit.
>>> --=FM=--
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Path: newscene.com!newscene!newscene!novia!novia!sequencer.newscene.com!not-for-mail
>>>>Newsgroups: alt.fan.aubergine
>>>>Subject: Re: Kids at work
>>>>Date: 6 Jan 2004 22:55:27 -0600
>>>>Organization: Ignorance Unlimited, Ltd.
>>>>Lines: 310
>>>>Message-ID: <jkvmvvof1s0pdg4piu9k087trno31uar78@4ax.com>
>>>>References: <AUB.22302080.22320104@AubsBunker.mn> <8bdmvvcfk11kcinqkr34hlla01i26cmiu5@4ax.com> <AUB.22334984.22335272@AubsBunker.mn> <kgkmvvc5nimvubtce2rvsjo0pk2vba0vk3@4ax.com> <f9smvvgsq6832hihpi00mqeji9363moruj@4ax.com>
>>>>Reply-To: Why Bother?
>>>>X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
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>>>>Xref: newscene.com alt.fan.aubergine:62355
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>You think that is something reserved for places like Cambodia?
>>>>>>>>>Official stats state that 320,000 kids between age 6 and 13 work all
>>>>>>>>>year in Italy, plus 120,000 more as seasonal help.
>>>>>>>>>Greece: 10,000 kids below age 13 work all year in agriculture.
>>>>>>>>>Germany: 500, 000 kids between 13 and 15 are into "little jobs"
>>>>>>>>>regularily.
>>>>>>>>>Tops go to Britain, that super dynamic experimentation playground for
>>>>>>>>>neo-cons. 3 million kids work regularily there all year round.
>>>>>>>>>Supermarkets, newsstalls, you name it.
>>>>>>>>>So we get this straight, we're not talking kids working for a little
>>>>>>>>>bit of money for themselves, we're talking kids who have to support
>>>>>>>>>their families.
>>>>>>>>>As always, long live Capitalism and that joke called democracy, which
>>>>>>>>>suits the sharks just as long as it promises profit. Currently,
>>>>>>>>>democracy looks like yesteryear's fashion at the sales.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I see. OK, so a bunch of short people have to work to survive, so
>>>>>>>>what?
>>>>>>>>Would that change any with that stupid "bartering" system you love so
>>>>>>>>much?
>>>>>>>>No, and why not? Because kids have always worked, no matter what the
>>>>>>>>system.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What good are they, if not to work?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Maybe, just maybe, we should stop here.
>>>>>>>For the following reasons:
>>>>>>>1. You never lost a word on why bartering is stupid.
>>>>>>>2. I never expressed my love for bartering systems. I just mentioned
>>>>>>>them as *interesting*.
>>>>>>>3. Your comments about kids working are outright stupid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You basically got two drive lanes here.
>>>>>>>You either shut up because you got nothing you want to contribute.
>>>>>>>Or you do take some stuff seriously. I took some time to answer a
>>>>>>>previous post from your end. My answer might or might not have been
>>>>>>>intelligent and/or comprehensible, but you should note that I took you
>>>>>>>question seriously. The way you dealt with my answer indicates any
>>>>>>>futire questions from your end should be ignored right from the start.
>>>>>>>Labour lost.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I see. So I asked you, all nice and polite like, to come up with a
>>>>>>pragmatic alternative to capitalism, and you wander off into some crap
>>>>>>about how marvy the barter system is, and how you never mentioned soup
>>>>>>kitchens, but I am the one that is treading on thin ice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And, to top it off, you call my child working comments "outright
>>>>>>stupid", and to add injury to insult, you tell me that I might have to
>>>>>>shut up?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You been drinking again, I can tell.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>OK, short and fucking sweet:
>>>>>>Despite all the inequities, flaws, and un fairness of the capitalist
>>>>>>model, the fucking thing works!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It isn't perfect, that's by default, but, until someone comes up with
>>>>>>a workable alternative, it's going to be the engine that drives this
>>>>>>world.
>>>>>>Prove me wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And about kids working:
>>>>>>Kids have always worked, and, in fact, that's what they were bred for.
>>>>>>The farmer needed cheap labour, and by poking his fat ugly sow of a
>>>>>>wife, he got the cheap labour, IF they lived.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>When the industrial revolution started, in the "advanced" countries,
>>>>>>the kiddies went to work in the home factories, at first, and later
>>>>>>moved into the mechanized, factories.
>>>>>>Did they suffer?
>>>>>>You bet your ass they did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Was their suffering avoidable?
>>>>>>No.
>>>>>>Not unless their families starved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Has much changed about child labour?
>>>>>>Yes, in the so called civilized societies, it has.
>>>>>>However, as about 75% of the world is still in the "dark ages", the
>>>>>>laws to protect kids are either non-existent, or not enforced.
>>>>>>And, point of fact, w/o the labour of their kids, even today, on
>>>>>>01/06/2004, many families would not eat today, w/o their children
>>>>>>working.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Should these countries/parents/factory owners be held accountable?
>>>>>>I dunno.
>>>>>>Just how does one explain the difference between the morals,
>>>>>>abilities, and attitudes, of the relatively new productive "developed"
>>>>>>areas, versus the depressed areas, that have been around for literally
>>>>>>thousands of years?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm not certain, but I suspect that some of this "difference" can be
>>>>>>explained by the fact that there are some countries, and specifically,
>>>>>>some individuals, THAT REFUSE TO GET THEIR HEADS OUT OF THEIR BUTTS!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Look, my communist friend, I am just as frustrated as you are, about a
>>>>>>lot of things, but dammit, it's time to face facts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Allowing people to own, operate, and reap the rewards, for having
>>>>>>their own businesses, as opposed to the State owns everything, is the
>>>>>>only salvation for the world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And don't even try that hackneyed crap about, "Well, communism
>>>>>>protects it's people by protecting them from the evil capitalists
>>>>>>by...."
>>>>>>It's all bullshit, and it's over.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"I don't own a TV."
>>>>>>Fine, just don't shoot the TV station owners that make a bazillion $'s
>>>>>>from advertisements.
>>>>>>You don't like to watch TV?, great, no skin off of my ass.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"I don't own a car."
>>>>>>Fine, just don't shoot the auto makers, the road builders, or any of
>>>>>>the millions of workers that manufacture automobiles.
>>>>>>You don;t want to drive a car?, no skin off my ass.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"I don't whatever."
>>>>>>Fine, and I mean this from the very bottom of my heart, don't shoot
>>>>>>those that do make their daily bread from being involved in inventing,
>>>>>>making, shipping, selling, buying, using, this mythical "whatever."
>>>>>>You can live w/o "whatever", fine, just live & let die.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And finally, a word about your attitude:
>>>>>>We have known each other for years, through thick and thin, and yet,
>>>>>>you seem to think that I am fodder for your diatribes.
>>>>>>FTR, I am not, and never have been.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have never, even though I could, every day of the week, eat a meal
>>>>>>costing US$300, and, truth be told, could also toss in a US$300
>>>>>>breakfast, and a US$300 lunch, which adds up to US$6300 per week.
>>>>>>And, I wouldn't even miss it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But I don't.
>>>>>>Why?
>>>>>>Because, despite what you might think, I give away literally tens of
>>>>>>thousands of US$'s to charities of all sorts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You, on the other hand, only bitch about the big bad mean capitalists,
>>>>>>and give not a damned penny to anyone.
>>>>>>And yet, that too is OK with me, only please, don't tell me that I am
>>>>>>a bad person, or that you might need to ignore my replies, by default.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I calls them as I smells them, and veggie, you smell rotten.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You want me out of your groups?
>>>>>>Fine, just say the word.
>>>>>>It;s not the first time you have kicked me out of them, but by all
>>>>>>that is holy, it will be the last time.
>>>>>>Get it?
>>>>>
>>>>>Just curious then am I understanding you right or am I misreading. Are you
>>>>>saying kids of poor families should work instead of getting and education? IOW
>>>>>keep an ignorant "underclass" of uneducated breeding uneductated who never gona
>>>>>have the chance to get an education and get anywhere and make a buck for who???
>>>>>Nike & Co? So that a couple of fat asses who enhirited a porfolio and never
>>>>>moved a finger can get richer and richer?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>-------------------------
>>>>>Free Spirit
>>>>>Founding Father of the Church of Personal Freedom
>>>>>First Knight of the Knights of Personal Freedom.
>>>>
>>>>As you didn't SNIP my post in your reply, I will attempt to answer
>>>>you.
>>>>
>>>>Now, let's just stop with the part that precedes your IOW, OK?
>>>>The words I used were sufficient, IMO.
>>>>
>>>>I am not saying that kids from poorer families, or poorer nations,
>>>>"should" do a damned thing.
>>>>But, I am saying, that that is the way it is, as of today, 2004.
>>>>
>>>>If their parents, societies, or governments, have to allow them, or
>>>>force them, to work in a sweatshop, at age 9 years, just so that the
>>>>families of said children can eat, then so be it.
>>>>I don't like it, you don't like it, and not many will admit to liking
>>>>it; however, that's the way it is.
>>>>
>>>>*Should* they be allowed to have a decent education?
>>>>I dunno, define "be allowed."
>>>>
>>>>If you are arguing that all children, regardless of race, creed,
>>>>religion, or country of birth, have some "god given rights" to be
>>>>educated, with said education being paid for by the "richer" nations,
>>>>or families, then no, those kids have no such "rights."
>>>>
>>>>If you are asking me if I would like to see all children, given a
>>>>decent education, then sure, why not?
>>>>Raising the education of the world, IMO, can only benefit the world.
>>>>But, am I going to pay a share of it, beyond that which I already pay
>>>>for?
>>>>Not if I can avoid it.
>>>>
>>>>Let me get personal:
>>>>I have just finished eating a home cooked meal of shrimp and rice.
>>>>I bought, and prepared, 6 large shrimp, at a cost of, including the
>>>>cooking oil, etc, US$7.
>>>>The rice, an excellent Basmati rice, purchased in10 Kilo quantities,
>>>>cost me, perhaps US$0.50, for huge bowl.
>>>>The red "shrimp" sauce, US$0.25.
>>>>The dried mustard, perhaps US$0.10.
>>>>The cooking oil, the heat, and the incidentals, cost me probably
>>>>another US$1.00.
>>>>
>>>>So, for a cost of US$8.85, one single American male, ate a dinner of
>>>>shrimp & rice.
>>>>
>>>>Sound about right?
>>>>OK, now my sources in the international food relief programs, tell me
>>>>that for US$10, I can help feed a family of 5 people, for an entire
>>>>week!
>>>>And, for another US$10, I can help supply an entire village with
>>>>potable water for a week.
>>>>Toss in another US$25 per month, and by golly, I can help supply the
>>>>needed medicines, for an entire household, for 3 months!
>>>>
>>>>Well gee whiz, for about US$100, I can, should I choose to be a stand
>>>>up fellow, allow an entire village of people, that live in a country
>>>>that has been in existence for thousands of years, long before this
>>>>evil capitalistic USA came into being, to continue to exist for
>>>>another month.
>>>>Well isn't that special?
>>>>
>>>>For the cost of 11 of my shrimp & rice dinners, I can be a hero.
>>>>Fine, I'll do my part.
>>>>
>>>>But wait, there's even more I can do!
>>>>For just a few more dollars, I can help to educate the children, of
>>>>the families, that live in the countries, that can't even feed them.
>>>>Sweet Jesus, does it get any better than this?
>>>>
>>>>No matter that the countries where these kids live, and refuse to
>>>>change. hate my guts, and no matter that these countries have no
>>>>respect for me as a person, as I am an American, and no matter that in
>>>>years to come, their children will grow up to bomb & kill my family,
>>>>or worse, I get to help educate them!
>>>>
>>>>Good lord above, where do I send my check?!!!
>>>>
>>>>No, not on my watch, not hardly.
>>>>You, or anyone, that hasn't treated me like I owe you something, has
>>>>an emergency, I'll help.
>>>>
>>>>You have a need for my help, and are not prone to call me names, or
>>>>say what a crappy country I was born into, I'll help.
>>>>
>>>>In fact, I'll go you one better:
>>>>I'll match, 2:1, every contribution of US$5,000 each, of every member
>>>>of this group, up to US$50,000 on my part, if this groups members come
>>>>up with the needed US$25,000, within 30 days from today, 01/06/2004.
>>>>
>>>>The proceeds from this exercise, will go to a charity, decided upon by
>>>>all the contributors, with a majority rules vote being the final say.
>>>>
>>>>Let's be clear about this, OK?
>>>>If 5 members of this group put up US$5,000 each, for a total of
>>>>US$25,000, within 30 days form today, 01.06.2004, I will match it,
>>>>2:1, for a total of US$50,000. and all that money, will go to a
>>>>legitimate, recognized, charity, chosen by the contributors.
>>>>
>>>>Me, I kind of favor those rench cock suckers, Dr.'s Without Borders,
>>>>but hey, that's just one of my favorites.
>>>>
>>>>dumb shit, and all of that.
>>>>Let the big mouths in this group, that have been whimpering for years
>>>>about how things should be done, and why me, why me?, and all that
>>>>other shit, put up, or shut up, once and for all.
>>>>
>>>>Just think, Free Spirit, you too can be a part of Usenet history.
>>>>Well?
>>>>
>>I ain't wildman, but I can tell you that I went to work in 1953 at
>>the age of 11 washing dishes for $.25 an hour. The next year
>>I graduated to carhop at nada per hour, only tips. The next
>>year I was promoted to fry cook at $.60 an hour. Kids working
>>have been happening forever, everywhere.
>
>Mine is a similar experience, starting when I was 9.
>I had a home, food, and all that a hardworking mother and father could
>provide, in the late 1950's, and I am OK with it.
>
>My point, was, and is, sincerely, to try and force the bleeding hearts
>in that group to do more than just talk.
>
>I have had it with them.
>If each one of them will put up US$5,000, I will match it 2:1.
>If they do, we will have US$75,000 to give away, to a legitimate
>charity.
>If they don't, well, it will save me about US$25,000.
>
>One way or the other, I am putting my money where my mouth is.
>Time will tell about them.
>
>Remember, you heard it here first!
>
You're jesture is a noble one, however, do you really think
that anyone in the other froup is gonna put up any cash? I
don't.
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