Some of this may be covered by other replies, or may be obsolete for
some reason, but it's too hard to reedit for that.
Let me warn you. It's long. Sorry.
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:02:04 -0700, Miss Elaine Eos
<Misc@your-pants.PlayNaked.com> wrote:
>In article <m8ni841kqpmfqtc8s4esu3hsn961tb1ca3@4ax.com>,
> mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>> >> >Will you kneel on
>> >> >the floor barefoot to eat at a Japanese restaurant that uses that style?
>
>> >> That would be fine, unless someone would think I was praying to some
>> >> Japanese god, and afaik no one will.
>
>> >> >Do you feel this somehow shows submission?
>
>> >> Yes, at a Jewish prayer service it does, and at a church it might well
>> >> seem to. Funny you should mention that word.
>
>> >So it's ok to show submission to the proprietor of a Japanese
>> >restaurant, but not to others...?!
>>
>> I expected to see a smiley after that. Since there isn't, I'll assume
>> you're serious. Kneeling at a Japanese restaurant is not showing
>> submission to the owner. It's pretending one is in Japan and eating
>> like they do there
>
>On this we agree.
>
>So my question is: why do you consider it blasphemous, when visiting
I haven't used that word, and I don't consider it blasphemous.
>someone else's church, to pretend that you are in a place where that's
>the custom, and showing the basic courtesies like they do, there?
Some customs are okay and some customs aren't.
BTW, you keep using the phrase "basic courtesies". Are you an
official representative of some church? Have you read the official
policies of any church, and you're quoting them? Maybe I'm at a
different church.
Is the following paragraph true: Afaik there is no easily available
booklet that lists basic courtesy for non-Christians who are in a
church, and maybe your only basis for thinking bowing is part of it is
that when the minister says "Please bow your heads", everyone does, or
that even without his saying it, everyone you notice bows together.
But have you ever asked the minister if he is addressing everyone or
just the Christians?
Statements to a congregation don't necessarily apply to everyone.
When a minister says, "Will you all stand" that doesn't include the
organist or the people in wheel-chairs, but he doesn't itemize all the
exceptions. I would expect that different churches can have
different policies, and in denominations that permit it, different
ministers within the same denomination can have different policies, as
to what is basic courtesy.
>> And the submission that a Jew is not to show is to another god. A
>> Jew can submit to his spouse, to his parents, to the guy who's
>> threatening to beat him up, or to a grizzly bear, just not to a god of
>> other people.
>
>Of course I would never tell you your religion, but I'm pretty sure that
>this is a non-standard interpretation of the 1st commandment which you
>quoted, earlier.
This is an amazing statement. How can you be pretty sure? How come
you don't *ask* me, since I know many many times more about Judaism
than you do.
A) FTR, in Judaism it's the Second Commandment.
B) It's not non-standard.
I woudl have said if it were my own personal view**. My policy and
that of most people I know is, if giving my own opinion or a minority
opinion, to mark it as such. Or I would have put a qualifier, like in
"This part is true, I THINK, even if everyone present is blind."
(emphasis added) **And I don't even have my own personal view on
big things like this. I'm not trying to start my own religion.
>By your own [posted] logic, what if someone observing were to think that
>you were worshiping a grizzly bear?!
Unlikely. If I survived, and I heard someone thought this, ROTFLOL,
I'd try to clarify things. I think it would be easy to convince him
otherwise.
Plus, he might think I was worshipping and that was ok, but he's not
allowed to just willy-nilly start worshipping bears because he saw me
do it. He's supposed to find out from someone who knows more than
either of us what is permitted and what isn't. That's one back-up.
And it's like a space ship with multi-redundant guidance systems, so
that if one fails there is more than one back-up. Don't mislead
someone, but if he's seen something, he should verify the conclusion
he's drawn. The third prevention is that he's supposed to learn this
stuff on his own in advance, so that watching someone won't confuse
him. (Confusion is more of a risk on smaller things.)
If you think this is a lot of trouble to go to, you should read the
moderated legal newsgroup where people try very hard to figure out in
advance what US and local law is so they won't break it. They read
books and webpages and take courses, then they ask on the newsgroup,
have an appointment with a lawyer scheduled after that, change their
practices or their plans just to be sure, even when it seems what they
are already doing is ok.
And also please remember that Jewish law covers all of what is civil
and criminal law in a country with a secular government like the US,
and morality, and one's relationship with God.
>> >I believe that you are attaching a great deal of baggage to the bowing
>> >of one's head (or kneeling, folding of hands or similar physical acts)
>> >that does not belong.
>
>> Do you have any religious beliefs? Do you take them seriously? How
>> would you feel if I told you that you shouldn't worry about living
>> according to your religious beliefs?
>
>I am sorry if you feel insulted -- I assure you that I do not mean in
>any way to belittle your religious beliefs.
Better you not use words like baggage, which in my experience is meant
to suggest psychological issues. That alone is insulting.
And it shouldn't be such an early path to take, when you could have
asked me if my views were my own or were standard Judaism. Didn't you
understand that from the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego,
which was written down over 2500 years ago. Obviously not bowing to
someone else's gods was already the well established policy.
> I am trying to understand
>what you are saying, as it is not like the beliefs of those who profess
>the same faith-system (Judaism) as you.
Huh! What are these beliefs you refer to? From whom did you learn
of them?
Perhaps you are conflating their behaviour with their beliefs. No
one's behaviour is perfect, and just about all Jews have gaps in their
knowledge of Judaism.
>I don't want to argue religion with you, but you SEEM to be saying that
>the god you worship considers it a sin for you to be courteous when in
>the presence of other people's religious practices if there is a chance
>that some naive person will mistake your intentions for reverence to
>another god.
No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying it is a sin to bow down before
another god, including bowing one's head. And it is a sin to
particpate in worship to another god, including physical participation
regardless of what one is thinking at the time. And it is an
additional sin to allow someone to see either of these, whether he is
naive or not.
I think this is a narrower restriction than what you suggest, which
seems to say that any courtesy could be prohibited. Any courtesy
would include my silence, but that's not included. If someone
misunderstands that, I'll correct him, but silence while others are
praying isn't a sin.
I also wouldn't leave the ringer on my cell phone on or take calls on
my cell phone, even if I only had to listen. I wouldn't read my email
or play solitaire on my Iphone (if I had one). Etc.
> As this strikes me as terribly petty,
By now you should know or at least suspect that I'm explaining Judaism
to you, not my own personal views, so I presume you won't be calling
it petty anymore.
> I am just trying to
>clarify if that's what you mean to be saying about him.
>
>> I think you are very insulting when you describe the religious
>> practices of someone else as baggage. When you descibe a Jewish law
>> as baggage.
>
>Are you representing that it is Jewish law that you are not to bow your
>head when in the presence of others who pray (to other gods) do?!
Yes. Absolutely.
>I do not state that Jewish law is baggage. I am suggesting that you are
>attaching extra meaning (which I term "baggage", as it is unnecessary
>weight that one need not carry) which is not otherwise there.
But after reading this far in this post, now you know, right?, that's
not the case.
BTW, in the figure of speech that uses baggage, where does the extra
weight originate?
>However, keep in mind that I am suggesting this openly confessing that I
>am no expert on Jewish law, and do so in the manner of inquiry, in a
>discussion about what is correct behaviour.
WADR, you should learn to phrase your inquiries without including so
many insults. It's easy to do, just ask questions and eliminate the
speculation and affirmatively phrased suggestions about how you think
it works.
>Hey, it's not like I said "that's a stupid idea", or anything... ;)
No, you just implied it was part of my pyschological problems, and
that it was petty, when you could have written one short post asking
me if this was my personal view or standard Judaism.
I thought I had made that clear, but I can see how I didn't. Like I
said above (or is it below?), there is always place on the border
between sin and no sin, also there is a border between yes and no,
where it a little change in perception can make the difference. I
thought quoting "You shall have no other gods..." and telling you this
was a violation was clear. I thought referring to your not respecting
"the precepts of my religion" was clear that I meant Judaism, but you
thought I had some non-standard form of Judaism.
This all shows how easy it is to have misunderstandings. <sigh>.
>> What if someone were to suggest that you're attaching a lot of
>> baggage to having everyone present bow, and why can't you be satisfied
>> that they are silent? Does a suggestion such as this sound polite to
>> you?
>
>Were someone to make a fuss that it was critical that everyone bow, I
You have been making a fuss right here. I used the present
progressive tense "you're attaching" and I meant here and now.
>would say that, yes, they were putting too much energy -- "carrying
>baggage" is the phrase I sometimes use -- around that.
>
>Again, we're just discussing proper behaviour, here. Try not to take it
>too personally.
Try laying off the insults and asking more questions.
>> > -- seemingly to make a point about the issue --
>>
>> **Not exactly and definitely not the only reason. Not bowing is not
>> to make a point to anyone else who is there.
>
>Earlier, you dedicated quite a bit of text to talking about how god
>didn't care, but it was important that no one else see bow your head,
>and tied this to several points.
>
>Now you say you are not doing it for the benefit of anyone else who is
>there.
Let me reply to the last thing you said first, and after that, an
earlier thing. When I wrote that line, I must have had in mind only
the non-Jews who were there. If there were any Jews there, I would
want them to see that I'm not bowing and hope they figured out why. I
contrasted it with the bigger problem, if I were to bow, and anyone,
Jew or gentile, noticed that, because the meaning of that, at least to
the Jews who are there but I still think to some others as well, is
not one of "he's just practicing basic courtesy". It's that I'm bowing
to the god the others are praying to. Which is not permitted, (ftr,
whether someone is watching or not).
The back and forth format in newsgroups is frequently confusing
because one person says something specific and the reply is addressed
to that point only. It may include something that doesn't apply
elsewhere. My answers were much longer than average as they were, and
still I didn't cover every situation.
I don't remember saying God doesn't care. I can't find the word care
in any of my 4 posts in this subthread. I don't think I said or meant
what you think I said. I remember saying that, yes, God knew my
intentions, and it was still wrong to bow my head no matter what my
intentions were. But if some Jewe were to also have the intention to
pray, that would be an additonal big problem.
God always wants everyone to refrain from violating whatever laws
apply to each person. God wants the best for each one of us. Right
now I don't know what you were referring to.
>Again, I do not mean to insult your beliefs, I am just having difficulty
>understanding what you are saying.
Everyone's religion is complicated. Especially to a newbie.
>> It doesn't matter what I intend. Jews are not allowed to bow to
>> anyone's god except to the God of Israel.
>>
>> We're not allowed to bow where it could look like we're bowing to some
>> other god. This part is true, I think, even if everyone present is
>> blind.
>
>I think this is the point where you took offense at my statements, so I
>just want to re-reassure you that I did not mean to insult you or your
>beliefs. My earlier comments were based on my understanding that the
>interpretation you describe immediately above is overly-strict.
>
>This is not to say that you are wrong -- again, I desire neither to
>insult your beliefs nor to debate Jewish law with you -- only that my
>understanding is that God's law prohibits WORSHIP of other gods, and
Did you get that from reading Exodus or the rest of the Jewish Bible?
Or from someone else who did no more than that? That's something like
reading the statute books of Indiana, but not reading the court
decisions where the laws are implemented and ironed out, and thinking
one understands the whole Indiana legal system. In Jewish and
American law and I'm sure every decent legal system, it's not possible
to write in advance a set of statutes detailed enough to cover every
situation. Because it's always possible -- and very frequently
happens -- to have a case on the border, with one factor or more
making it look like it falls on one side of the law and another factor
or more on the other side.
One can't learn Judaism merely by reading the Bible.
I can't emphasize this too much.
>that any sort of defiance or withholding of minor courtesies is
>something that man added, later. (IMO, "...to prove a point.")
The Oral Law was given to Moses at Mt. Sinai. It includes some laws
and a set of about 30 methods or rules for discerning the law where
the Written law is not precisely on point.
So some sub-laws were not expressed explicitly at Sinai but come from
laws that were via the rules that God gave us and are still considered
to come from God at Sinai. But I'm not saying this is one of them.
I've avoided mentioning Exodus 20:6, because I'm not sure it is the
basis of this, but I think it might be. It says, "Do not cast yourself
down before them....". This is part of the Second Commandment or what
you consider the First.
I'm no scholar, so I can't give the detailed basis of every Jewish
law, and even when I know one verse, there is a lot more to say on any
point. There's a lot I haven't read that others have. Plus I'm
starting to forget things I once knew.
>So, at this point, since I'm certainly not going to tell you that you
>need to believe differently, I will just remember that some people feel
>this way, and to not feel slighted if they behave this way.
That's great. Thank you. Maybe I could have just jumped ahead to
this line
>Other than that, I think we just have to agree to disagree (unless you
>think one of us is going to win the other one over on this one... ;)
Looks simple, but many possible answers occur to me, none that aren't
too complicated to finish.
If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
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