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"DF" <ivana4834@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:3Famc.359431$Pk3.27065@pd7tw1no:
>
> "Secret Squirrel" <ssquirrel@nottheremailer.net> wrote in
> message news:PIGP5ZZG38111.841875@Gilgamesh-Frog.org...
>> Yes, 100 % agreed. In which case it's *not* the adult
>> who's having sex with the kid who is causing the trauma,
>> it's the result of the taboo, imposed on the kid by
>> everyone else. In which case the sure-fire way to solve
>> the problem is to do away with the taboo, rather than grow
>> even more hysterical about enforcing it. The
>> cross-cultural record is fully consistent with this
>> observation. As Pogo said "we have met the enemy and he is
>> us".
>>
>> This should be no surprise, after all homosexuals, and
>> people who had interracial sex, also suffered for breaking
>> a taboo. People have killed themselves as the result of
>> censure from breaking a strongly-supported social taboo.
>> There's plenty of evidence that taboos can exact high
>> emotional "penalties" for being transgressed.
>>
>> So, if the activity itself, materially and tangibly
>> speaking, is harmless, then why do all this harm by
>> supporting the taboo? You'd be doing lots of people a
>> favor. And it can be done, just as we've revoked the taboo
>> against interracial sex and are well along the way in
>> revoking it against homosexuality.
>>
>> The first step is that you legalize the activity if it's
>> been previously criminalized. That is what was done in
>> both those aforementioned instances, and a decade or so
>> later people were engaging in both activities without
>> feeling much in the way of shame or angst at all.
> The difference between pedophelia and the taboos you
> mentioned are the ages of the people involved. Everyone can
> create their ideal fantasy, but that doesn't mean it is
> right for everyone. I don't think legalizing pedophelia is
> the answer. You claim to have good intentions, but can you
> speak for all pedophiles? Can you be sure that children
> will not experience forceful rape or other sexual abuse?
Can likewise you claim that allowing *adults* to have sexual
freedom will prevent all sex crimes? You're setting a pretty
high standard here.
I never claimed that sexual freedom does not have potential
problems. The solution is, of course, is to address the
problems head-on rather than to outlaw the sex, because the
sex by itself is NOT the problem. The problems involved
with adult-juvenile sex are mostly 1) unwanted pregancy,
2) disease, 3) the adult being a "bad influence" on a youngster,
and 4) inequalties in power. These can be addressed separately
without outlawing the sex; in fact, #1, 2, and 4 are equally
applicable to adult-adult relationships as much as adult-
juvenile relationships. # 3 can be addresssed by upping the
ante on both the penalty and enforcement of laws against
contributing to the delinquency of a minor, something that
I would gladly support.
> The number one concern when dealing with children is
> protection and safety. People will not allow children to be
> vulnerable to rape or abuse. You say that taboos cause
> emotional and mental harm...think about that and then
> consider that this is one taboo that will not change.
But it *is* changing, slowly. Teens are exploring their
sexuality, with each other and with adults. And it will
filter down from there.
You see, the same cultural infrastructure forces that
cut the tie between reproduction and sexual pleasure--
contraceptives and access to abortion--is likewise moving
down to the kids. Conservatives do have it right, you can't
have adults merrily celebrating the joys of sex and then
turn around to the kids and say "it's not for you, it's
'bad touching'", and expect it to stick. Kids'll of course
will want to do it too, with people of their own choosing,
and this includes adults. And increasingly they *are* doing
just that.
The anti-pedo hysteria is the last shriek of the Religious
Right and others who want to prop up the old sexual morality,
who correctly realizes that if sex is seen as something done
for fun and pleasure, then kids will want to join in. Likewise,
conservatives also correctly realize that if you are able to
drum into kids heads' that sex is "bad touching" at an early
age then they'll not likely grow up into sexually liberated
adults. Even today, when I have sex with (legal-age) young
people, I find out that many are ashamed of their own bodies
and uncomfortable with sexuality and nudity in this so-called
"sexually liberated" era. This is *because* they were all
brought up under the "sex = bad touching" mentality that our
culture wants drummed into the heads of all kids. Many people
never grow out of this indoctrination, and are uncomfortable
with their own sexuality and sexual topics throughout their
lives because of it. And this is a *good thing*?
This all should be of no surprise, we're repeating history.
The first sexual revolution, in the latter part of the 19th
century, drew a similar response by the powers-that-were, in
an attempt to prop up the old morality: that's when all the
"crimes against nature" statutues were passed.
Too-many Liberals, OTH, have it all wrong, and mislead themselves
with the myth that you can drum "bad touching"
ideas into children and then have them grow up into adults
comfortable with their sexuality. If you truly want to
have sexually liberated people, you must not start them out
in life indoctrinating them that sex is somehow a bad thing
that they shouldn't do. But be prepared, if you *don't*
do exactly that, that our bonobo-like sexual natures will
drive kids to go out and *have sex*, with adults and peers.
So what is it? Are you for human sexual liberation or against
it?
> Our mental development is highly based on experience. For
> example, Bulemia and Anorexia are
> prevalent in North America, while most other cultures do
> not experience these disorders at all. Because they are
> culturally based does not mean they aren't very real
> conditions. Would you willingly perpetuate the development
> of such disorders in others?
?? Your example proves my point. Bulemia and anorexia are
disorders among young women *because* of our recent cultural
notions about quite-literally starved women looking "good".
The people who promote the cultural notions, that women
being ultra-thin, even to the point of unhealthiness, is
"beautiful", are the ones who cause young women to do this
to themselves.
What is your answer? To maintain those notions of "beauty"
and just to send women off to therapy? That's a never-ending
process of victimization and treatment; I guess great business
opportunities for the therapists, but bad for everyone else.
Why not just end the problem by doing away with the notion?
(I realize that's easier said than done, but I think that
one should realize how cultural concepts of beauty in
hierarchical societies come about. A short answer would be:
looking "beautiful" is something that only the wealthy and
powerful can afford to do. By decreasing the relative
inequalities in Western societies, and our standard of
beauty will become more realistic).
And it's the same with pedophilia. The ones who say that
"sex between an adult and a kid messes the kid up for life",
even though there's tons of evidence, both in this culture
and elsewhere, that this is not true, that indeed the opposite
often is true, are the ones responsible when harm that does
occur. And the cure is to do away with notion that this is
harmful. Then adults would laugh about their sexual
relationships as children, and remember them fondly, instead
of feeling distress and shame and angst over them. Even
where the relationship was not positive, they probably
would not suffer the same degree of distress over it,
after all, it's a little thing, right?
And that is not just theory. Many people *do* quietly
remember fondly their childhood sexual relationships with
adults.
> The fact is, even if harm is
> caused by society's response, it does not mean it isn't
> real. It is selfish not to take social consequences into
> perspective.
I'm not. Doing as I say would eliminate the negative
social consequences, or at least minimize them.
> You can't ignore the fact that our culture is
> not going to accept pedophelia and how this will affect the
> child in other areas of his or her life. For those who want
> to live in a culture that accepts pedophelia, I would
> suggest relocating to such places in order to avoid the
> consequences of a culture who will not accept such
> philosophies.
Isn't that like teling African-Americans that they should
have moved back to Africa, rather than to create an America
that lives up to its own values of freedom and equality?
Didn't white Southerners also shout "never, never, never" to
African-American equal rights and desegregation?
The problem isn't with us. It's with you.
> I understand why you are advocating for your cause. It must
> be easier for you to rationalize pedophelia instead of
> looking at the concept objectively and looking at the real
> as opposed to the ideal. When you rationalize so strongly,
> you are alleviating youself of self-blame and doubt. It
> makes it easier to project blame onto society than to
> examine your own issues. The fact still stands that this is
> the culture you are choosing to live in.
I think there indeed is a lot of "rationalizing" going on
above, to make reality into something that one wishes it
was, instead of the way that it simply is. But that
rationalization is being done by you, not us.
Turn all the above around and look at your own motives.
It is undeniable that kids in other cultures had sex with
adults and suffered no trauma because of it. It is likewise
undeniable that kids in *this culture* have had sex with
adults and not only not suffered harm, but say that the
relationship was a positive force in their lives. Those
facts by themselves demolish the position that adult-juvenile
sexuality is something harmful and "bad" in and of itself.
Yet you want to maintain the status quo...why? Because doing
so gives you the warm fuzzies, and panders to your prejudices?
Secret Squirrel
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