Path: news.nzbot.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.fan.uncle-davey
Subject: Re: The Bible vs. the Enuma Elish and Gilgamesh
From: Mekkala <joremovedathiskimtoreply@attbi.com>
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Organization: James K. Dodson Co.
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Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:25:51 GMT
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On 05 Dec 2003, "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl> screwed up his face,
groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
news:bqpq08$n8p$1@news.onet.pl:
>
>> On 28 Nov 2003, "Dr. Jason Gastrich" <news@jcsm.org> screwed up his
>> face, groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
>> news:__Qxb.55747$t01.44819@twister.socal.rr.com:
>>
>> > Ariaan wrote:
>> >> Mike Ruskai wrote:
>> >>> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 16:41:36 +0100, Uncle Davey wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> By the same token, in exchange for pointing out your split
>> >>>> infinitive, I now am duty bound to think up a preposition to end
>> >>>> this sentence with.
>> >>>
>> >>> Not to pick on you personally, but this seems as good a time as
>> >>> any to point out that there's nothing ungrammatical about split
>> >>> infinitives or ending sentences with prepositions.
>> >>>
>> >>> There is, in fact, no official body to determine what is or is
>> >>> not proper grammar in English. Those who take it upon themselves
>> >>> to dictate grammar are always subservient to actual usage,
>> >>> whether they admit it or not.
>> >>>
>> >>> Since split infinitives and sentences ending in a preposition
>> >>> have clear and unambiguous meanings (all else being equal), they
>> >>> are perfectly grammatical.
>> >>>
>> >>> For those who are curious, the nonsense with split infinitives
>> >>> derives from the fact that in other languages on which English is
>> >>> based (in variously sized parts), infinitives are single words,
>> >>> and therefore by their very nature unsplittable.
>> >>>
>> >>> In German, for example, the equivalent of the English "to eat" is
>> >>> "essen". The German equivalent of "hungrily" is "hungrig". You
>> >>> can't put one word in the middle of another, so "to eat hungrily"
>> >>> is "hungrig essen". Even in unconventional order, "essen
>> >>> hungrig", the infinitive remains whole, simply because it's a
>> >>> single word.
>> >>
>> >> Tsk. Those two words together do not make one infinitive at all.
>> >> 'Hungrig' is an adjunct or modifier. Only 'eat' can make up the
>> >> infinitive, because only 'eat' is a verb. 'Hungrig essen', or
>> >> 'eating hungrily' for that matter, are not some sort of 'compound'
>> >> verb. Come on!
>> >> Splitting an infinitive in German would be to take the verb
>> >> 'abseilen' and breaking it up in 'ab' and 'seilen' for use in the
>> >> following sentence: Wir seilten die letzten Meters ab.
>> >> That, my friend, is splitting an infinitive; what you said is
>> >> simply placing the modifier elsewhere in the sentence.
>> >>
>> >>> In English, however, the infinitive is not a single word. It is
>> >>> no less clear saying "to hungrily eat" than "to eat hungrily".
>> >>
>> >> Wrong, as stated above.
>> >>
>> >>> Depending on what follows, it may be even more clear. For
>> >>> example, the strictly grammatic (according to wankers with too
>> >>> much time on their hands) form might be, "to eat hungrily the
>> >>> large meal provided." To most English speakers, it would be more
>> >>> natural and more clear to say "to hungrily eat the large meal
>> >>> provided". This is because it's more clear in the second example
>> >>> that there's something further on in the sentence that is being
>> >>> eaten.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't know off hand where the panic about ending sentences with
>> >>> prepositions comes from. Perhaps it's simply the name
>> >>> "preposition" itself, which implies that the position being
>> >>> described comes before the object it applies to. That's not the
>> >>> modern usage, obviously, because a word doesn't cease to be a
>> >>> preposition by being placed after the object to which it applies.
>> >>> One can hardly complain about a sentence ending with a
>> >>> preposition if the word is no longer a preposition by virtue of
>> >>> being at the end.
>> >
>> > You guys better stay on Ariaan's good side. He's a linguist (and
>> > he can get a little nasty).
>>
>> Yes, and I have no problem with saying I fully disagree with him on
>> the subject of split infinitives. I will change my stance if he can
>> rephrase the following to retain the dramatic impact of the phrase,
>> yet remove the split infinitive:
>>
>> "To boldly go where no man has gone before..."
>>
>> Proper usage, according to you at least, would be:
>>
>> "Boldly to go where no man has gone before..."
>> or
>> "To go boldly where no man has gone before..."
>> or
>> "To go where no man has gone before boldly..."
>>
>> None of these strike one as the original did.
>>
>> --
>> Mekkala, Atheist #2148
>> "Atheism is ... the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
>> --Emmett F. Fields
>
> I can only suggest we look at how the star trek lead in translates
> into German:
>
> Space, the final frontier
> Lebensraum, die Endloesung.
>
> These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise
> Ich bin ein Berliner des Sternsturmtruppenluftwaffe
> Untersuchungstechnik
>
> Its five year mission
> Ihre stalinistische Fuenf-Jahres-Plan
>
> To seek out new life, new civilisation
> Zu neuem Lebensborn, neuen Reichen, neuen Fuehrern 'Achtung, Achtung,
> Sieg Heil' zu schreien
>
> To boldly go where no man has gone before
> Da von Arbeit freigemacht zu werden wo kein Arsch vorher von Arbeit
> freigemacht worden ist.
>
> Doo-doooh-doo-doo-doo-dooooh
> Du du liegst mir im Herzen
>
> Doo-doooh-doo-doo-doo-dooh
> Du du, liegst mir im Sinn
>
> Dooooh-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo -dooooh
> Du du machst mir viel Scherzen
>
> Doo-doooh-doo-doo-doo-doo-dooooooooooh
> Weiss nicht, wie gut ich Dir bin.
>
> I think you will find the German version more dramatic than the
> English version, with its lousy split infinitive.
*ahem*
Uncle Davey, I can only assume you don't speak German and someone's
pulling your leg, because the above "translation" doesn't translate...
Well, for example, the phrase you matched with "To boldly go where no
man has gone before..." roughly translates as "Leaving work to go where
no ass (as in bum, rear end, buttocks, etc.) has left work to go
before..."
Speaking of which, "boldly to go" is a perfectly natural construct in
German. It is no such thing in English. We do not adopt German grammar
and syntax when setting rules for the English language, as evidenced by
the fact that the official standards for English are, for the most part,
completely different from the official standards for German.
What it really comes down to is the beauty of a phrase. A split
infinitive, in a language like English which allows such a construct,
can lend a certain beauty and concise impact to a phrase, without
compromising the meaning of it.
A linguist like Ariaan, who probably has never published a book in his
life, might get screaming and blue in the face when he sees split
infinitives, despite the fact that a number of the most respected
authors in the history of mankind used it freely, but I'd compare him to
many of today's classical musicians -- so desperately married to rules,
form, complexity, that any kind of artistic beauty flies miles over
their heads.
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"Atheism is ... the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
--Emmett F. Fields
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