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Subject: Re: The Bible vs. the Enuma Elish and Gilgamesh
From: Mekkala <joremovedathiskimtoreply@attbi.com>
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Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:30:15 GMT
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On 28 Nov 2003, "Dr. Jason Gastrich" <news@jcsm.org> screwed up his
face, groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
news:Q2Rxb.55764$t01.47832@twister.socal.rr.com:
> Al Klein wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 16:41:36 +0100, "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com>
>> posted in alt.atheism:
>>
>>> U?ytkownik "Mekkala" <joremovedathiskimtoreply@attbi.com> napisa? w
>>> wiadomo?ci news:Xns94415E80B11E8Mekkala@199.45.49.11...
>>>> On 28 Nov 2003, "Dr. Jason Gastrich" <news@jcsm.org> screwed up his
>>>> face, groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
>>>> news:mIHxb.54581$t01.19729@twister.socal.rr.com:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> As promised, here are my answers to the assertions that the Bible
>>>>> was based on some legends and myths. There was a very empty and
>>>>> unsupported assertion regarding the Egyptian Book of the Dead. I
>>>>> had only a link, so I was unable to find any connection between it
>>>>> and the Bible. Consequently, I was unable to respond to any
>>>>> assertions regarding this book and the Bible. If someone wishes
>>>>> to expand on Don's link, I'd be happy to check it out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is my research. Enjoy:
>>>>> http://jcsm.org/BibleLessons/Originality1.htm
>>
>>>> WOOHOO!! Some more airtight, irrefutable Gastrich logic!
>>>>
>>>> "We know for absolutely positively sure the Pentateuch was written
>>>> by Moses. How do we know this? Why, because the Pentateuch says
>>>> so!"
>>>>
>>>> Jason, I salute you!
>>>>
>>>> *goes off to write a book that says it was written by Elvis*
>>>>
>>>> (Oh, and Jason -- if you really want people to think you're a
>>>> "Doctor", you should try not to randomly drop commas in between
>>>> words when you write a paper)
>>>
>>> Thank you for obeying the all-usenet convention of making a
>>> grammatical mistake yourself while correcting someone else's
grammar.
>>
>> Did you miss the argument that a claim in a book doesn't prove that
>> the claims in the book are correct? Or did you just dishonestly
>> choose to ignore it?
>
> His 3 sentence summary of a multiple page paper was very elementary.
The
> Bible is 66 books. Furthermore, the Pentateuch clearly isn't the only
> source of evidence for Mosaic authorship. Perhaps you both should
reread
> the paper.
*ahem*
Ok, Jason, let's take a look at this. Now, I was responding to only
part of the paper, so we'll only examine the part I was responding to.
This brings up the obvious question of whether the point I was arguing
with was a complete point in and of itself, so let's first address that
to forestall any confusion on that particular:
"These tablets were found in the library of the Assyrian king
Asshurbanapal. They are dated to the 12th century B.C. Some believe
they are based on an older, Sumerian version of the poem from
approximately 1800 B.C.; which was the time of Abraham and Hammurabi.
Consequently, the real question is this: Did the alleged, Sumerian
version pre-date the biblical account of creation and if it did, was the
biblical account created from it?
"The easiest way to find this answer is to discover when these stories
were written. The events in the first five books of the Bible, often
called the Pentateuch, pre-date the alleged, Sumerian text and were
essentially written by Moses. Moses lived around 1500 B.C. There are a
great number of reasons to believe Moses wrote 99% of the Pentateuch
(including Genesis) and some of these reasons include the following."
Well, Jason, it appears you are asking a question with the intention of
arguing in favor of the answer you believe to be correct. The question
is whether or not Moses (who lived earlier than the 12th century B.C.,
the determined date of the Assyrian tablets) wrote the Pentateuch.
I'd like to interject a comment here -- you claim that the Pentateuch
"pre-dates the alleged, Sumerian text". However, the "alleged,
Sumerian" text on which the Assyrian tablets were supposedly based is
claimed to have been written at approximately 1800 B.C., or so you say.
If Abraham lived and wrote the Pentateuch around 1500 B.C., that would
mean that the Pentateuch was written *after* the "alleged, Sumerian"
text. Thus, proving that Moses wrote the Pentateuch (even if you were
able to prove such) would do nothing to demonstrate that the Pentateuch
predates the Sumerian text.
Anyway, to return to the original analysis. Immediately after stating
the two quoted paragraphs, you list 6 reasons that Moses must have
written the Pentateuch. Immediately after the list of proofs, you state
the following:
"Now, we have seen that the first five books of the Bible (including the
creation account) were penned by Moses near 1500 B.C. This clearly
predates even a late dating of the Enuma Elish. Therefore, one of our
questions have been answered."
In other words, you feel you have adequately proved that Moses wrote the
Pentateuch. That means that the alleged proof must appear sometime
between the first two paragraphs I quoted (in which you stated your
intention to prove Moses' authorship), and the last paragraph I quoted
(in which you stated that you had successfully proved Moses'
authorship). The only intervening text is those six points in the list.
I will therefore address each of the six points, and I think it will be
generally agreed by all that if no reasonable proof appears in any of
the six, I will have adequately demonstrated both that you are a liar
(since your concluding statement is obviously a lie) and that you have
not actually proved that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, therefore calling
the rest of your paper into question.
Point 1:
"In Exodus 17:14 and 34:27, we read that the Lord told Moses to write."
Exodus 17:14 and 34:27 are part of the Pentateuch, last I checked. If I
write a book containing the statement, "This book was written by
Elvis," does that constitute evidence that my book was written by Elvis?
So, from here on out, let's just discard any "proofs" that are based on
what the Pentateuch itself says, shall we?
Point 2:
"In Exodus 24:4, Numbers 33:2, Deuteronomy 31:9, 31:22, and Deuteronomy
32 we read that Moses wrote."
Same. Discard.
Point 3:
"The New Testament affirms, in Luke 20:28, that Moses wrote in the
Pentateuch. It reads, "Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any
man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his
brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.""
Not a quote from the Pentateuch, but a quote from the Bible
nevertheless. Since we are trying to prove or disprove that the Bible
as a whole is inerrant, and since the above passage was written by a
person who believes, as you do, that the Pentateuch was written by
Moses, we can discard this on the same basis as we can discard the above
-- that a book cannot itself be taken as proof of its own authorship.
You could claim that the New Testament is proof, since it was written by
a different person who is independently corroborating. The problem is
twofold -- one, the author of this passage lived a very long time after
Moses and therefore can have no direct knowledge of Moses' authorship.
His knowledge must be based on tradition, as is yours, and this is no
more valid as proof than yours is.
Furthermore, *you*, Gastrich, believe that the Bible was written by God,
and therefore that the original author of every book was God Himself,
while people like Moses et al. were his mouthpieces through whom the
book was dictated. In other words, to accept the independent testimony
of a New Testament author, we must accept that it is indeed independent,
which means that we are contradicting what you yourself believe. We are
forced to make a choice -- either believe that God wrote the Bible, or
believe that Moses wrote the Pentateuch. Thus, it would be wisest if
you were to drop this point altogether, although it is of no importance
since as I've shown, other reasons make it invalid as proof in any case.
Point 4:
"Later in biblical history, we read that there was a "Book of Moses."
See Joshua 1:7 and 8, 2 Chronicles 25:4, Ezra 6:18, and Nehemiah 13:1."
For reasons above, discard.
Point 5:
"Jesus and the early church attributed the Torah to Moses. See Matthew
19:7, 22:24, Mark 7:10, 12:26, John 1:17, 5:46, and 7:23."
For reasons above, discard.
Point 6:
"The early Jewish and Christian tradition is virtually unanimous in
ascribing Genesis through Deuteronomy to Moses. See Ecclesiasticus
24:23, Philo, Josephus, the Mishnah, and the Talmud."
In other words, your peers, those who believe as you do and hold to the
tradition to which you hold, agree with you. Surprise, surpise!
You must, then, believe the teachings of the late Branch Davidians,
since we have the proof that the Branch Davidian tradition is "virtually
unanimous" in agreeing with Branch Davidian doctrine?
You are a liar, and you have shown nothing to prove Moses' authorship.
Indeed, all you have shown as proof that Moses wrote the Pentateuch
could likewise be offered as proof of the indentity of the author of any
book in the Mormon scriptures. Or, for that matter, any book or chapter
in any scripture in the history of humankind. You have "proven" that no
book of scripture ever has lied nor ever will lie about its own
authorship.
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly
realized I was talking to myself!"
--Peter O'Toole.
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