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From: "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.uncle-davey
Subject: Re: Stop God
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:38:22 +0200
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>
> "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote in message
> news:bg0kne$s2o$1@news.onet.pl...
> >
> > news:bfvcj5$j6unr$1@ID-138339.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > >
> > > "Nunya" <yah@right.com> wrote in message
> > > news:FtGUa.24814$zd4.5878@lakeread02...
> > > >
> > > > "Piorokrat" <piorokrat@autograf.pl> wrote in message
> > > > news:bfqlhn$qb0$1@news.onet.pl...
> > > > >
> > > > > news:861Ua.29236$xn5.4727322@news0.telusplanet.net...
> *some snippage*
> > > > >
> > > > > What comes to mind is that God is the creator, he made us, and we
> did
> > > not
> > > > > make ourselves. He can do what he likes with us, and we are very
> much
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > receiving end. We cannot dictate to him.
> > > >
> > > > Actually even according to the bible that's a debatable point. :)
In
> > > > Genesis the actual word used to describe the diety who created the
> > earth,
> > > > heavens, people in their image, etc is "Elohim" which is plural,
i.e.
> > > Gods.
> >
> > Sure. Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and the three are one. Hence you have
a
> > plural ending 'im' even though the 'eloh' root comes from a verbal
ending
> in
> > the singular. The name of God expresses the for us difficult to grasp
> > trinitarian concept.
>
> That's one interpretation. There is much scholarly debate on the subject.
> It's a matter of personal belief.
>
It's a matter of a barrage of propaganda, with people on the receiving end
being told about the plural suffix and not about the singular root.
> >
> >
> > > > It reads to me as describing an entire pantheon of dieties.
> >
> > Three is quite enough. Don't be greedy.
>
> hehehe, it's not a matter of being greedy. :) My beliefs are somewhat
> difficult to explain to others. The polytheistic element to many pagan
> beliefs is actually similar to the concept of the trinity. The trinity
> itself is actually quite important in Celtic belief structure although the
> details differ. Many pagans (including myself) do believe in the concept
of
> a single All, Life Force, choose a word.
How about 'God'?
> The "names" of the separate
> dieties can be considered aspects or children of the All.
Doesn't that make the system more complex than it needs to be?
> >
> > Whereas if
> > > you
> > > > continue reading Genesis it changes to Yahweh, a singular name for
> > "Lord".
> >
> > It is a form from the verb 'to be', again, another unique form, hence in
> the
> > early part of Exodus, where the term is first expressed, the translators
> > have generally translated this as 'I am that I am'.
>
> Again, much scholarly debate. And the translation you're thinking of is
> taken more from Jehovah rather than Yahweh.
I do beg your pardon, but both the words you mention are only differing
conventions of transliterating the same Tetragrammaton. Yoth Heth Waw Heth.
Remember Hebrew doesn't show the vowels. You can add dots on for the vowels,
but the scriptures don't have them.
This debate is like one I had last year when, working for a large
corporation, I had to justify employing a sales rep. by filling out some
stupid form and sending it to an empty suit in Stockholm. I gave all the
financial model on my form and sent it off and the head of the sales
department filled in his form in saying about how many candidates he'd
interviewed for the job and why he picked this one, and we bundled the forms
together and sent them off.
About a month later we get an angry letter from Stockholm saying that the
forms were not complete because there was no 'Exception from general freeze
in employment' form for Ksenia Kuznetzova and no 'Manager recruitment
procedure report' form for Xenia Kuznetsova. You would think that they would
have worked out that you can transliterate the same name from cyrillics in a
number of ways, but they didn't even consider that possibility.
The girl's name is in Russian 'KCEHbackwardsR', and you can transliterate
this as Ksenya, Ksenia, Xenya, Xenia, as you like. This was completely lost
on the Swedes. but then I've already said before what I think of the Swedes.
> Some good references to the
> researchers and their work here http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08329a.htm
>
Well according to your link both forms refer to the verb to be. It is just
still an unanswered question exactly what the form is.
That's not new, people have been saying the same thing for hundreds or even
thousands of years.
> >
> > > > Meaning a single diety created Eden, Adam, and Eve. Cain even took
a
> > wife
> > > > from another land, so where did she come from? (Answer: the Land of
> Nod,
> > > the
> > > > "Other People")
> > > >
> >
> > You must understand that there is no tradition in the recording of
ancient
> > genealogies to give a comprehensive record of all the children and all
the
> > children's children. Only in the case of the thirteen children of Jacob
do
> > we see a full account, because obviously they become the twelve tribes
of
> > Israel and so it is significant, (at least up to the time of Rehoboam's
> > shabby policy decision after the death of Solomon, and the subsequent
> > defection of all tribes but Judah) . Normally only one line is shown.
> > Otherwise from Noah we would have millions of people and no room for
> > anything else in the Bible by the time we get to the end of the period
> > covered.
>
> But that's going on an assumption that all humans actually did die in a
> worldwide flood.
Eight people survived. No one is saying they all died in the flood.
>Whereas archaeological and geologic evidence disputes that
> at every turn. There is evidence of a flood in the Black Sea (Robert
> Ballard is leading expeditions regarding this). And there was regular
> flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. These facts also would
explain
> why there are flood tales in those areas of the world (re: Noah's tale and
> Gilgamesh) but they are not found elsewhere in the world.
>
What's all this then? Australia? Bolivia? Tanzania?
http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html#anchor43009
> >
> > Obviously Eve will have had many, many daughters and people were so
> vigorous
> > at the time close to time zero that the incest, which was evidently not
> > sinful either at that time, did not cause significant weakening. The
> > depletion of the gene pool after the flood was presumably one reason
> > subsequent generations started living only around seventy years, and it
> > hasn't got much better till today, for all of the advances in medicine
and
> > modern living. Even after the incest with Lot by his daughters after
they
> > escaped from Sodom and Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt
>
> Again, all an assumption that everyone died in the flood. However,
> regarding the Other People the Bible claims that man was made in his image
> (on the sixth day) before describing the creation of Adam and Eve. Granted
> this is open to interpretation.
The 'other people' were Neanderthals and I don't think they have any living
descendents.
>
> >
> > > > So whenever someone tries to tell me that I'm somehow subject to
their
> > > God's
> > > > will, I simply point out that I'm one of the "Other People". :) I
> have
> > my
> > > > own dieties.
> > > >
> >
> > But do they have you though? That's the question. Or are they just in
your
> > head or hanging on your wall?
>
> Do they "have" me? In what respect? They exist in my head, in my heart,
in
> the world around me. When I hear my children laugh, the wind in the
trees,
> the roses in my garden, and the earthquake halfway around the world.
Diety
> is apart and part of us. And no, they aren't hanging on my wall. :) To
me,
> diety is meant to be absorbed, not worshipped.
Your deity suits _your_ purpose. But we are supposed to find out what the
true God who created us expects of us, and worship was certainly part of the
deal.
If your God isn't worth worshipping then there's not much I can do about
that.
> >
> > > > The last two sentences of yours I totally agree with. We cannot
> dictate
> > > to
> > > > diety, they do as they please with us.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This petition is for God to 'stop making bad things happen', but
> this
> > > > > presupposes that human beings have a higher morality than their
own
> > > > creator.
> > > > > This is not a frame of mind to come to God in. If God sends
plagues
> > and
> > > > > misery into this current world, then that is by definition not a
bad
> > > > thing,
> > > > > but serves whatever purposes he is working out. And they are grand
> and
> > > > > mysterious purposes beyond our understanding.
> > > >
> > > > But isn't that just an excuse? Why is there such a need for some
> xians
> > to
> > > > believe that their god is nothing but good and can do no evil? The
> > bible
> > > > itself is full of contradictions. Hell he even lied to Adam! Isn't
> it
> > > > possible that God is not good and not evil? That he just is?
> > > >
> >
> > The world is convinced, despite the fact that its best legal experts are
> > pathetically fallible and the courts in any country are a lottery, after
> so
> > many years to get it right, that they know what is good and bad and can
> > dictate those ideas to God. What they need to grasp is that 'good' means
> > what God says it means and not what they think it means.
>
> I don't think the intent of the legal systems (except in Islamic
government
> countries) is to dictate to God what is good and bad. The intent, I
> believe, is to protect those who suffer at the hands of those who don't
care
> about good and bad.
>
Mankind at individual level wants to dictate to God what is good and bad.
The person who set up this petition that kicked off this discussion is
saying 'God, stop doing bad things' ie, setting himself up in judgement over
God and inviting others to do likewise. I am saying that if people cannot
even, at this late date in our development manage to get a decent system of
law or democracy in place in any country of the world, who are we to set out
definitions of good and bad and bind the Almighty to them?
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > The expression 'it's not funny any more' is also out of place. As
> > > > creatures
> > > > > of dust we are ill qualified to assess what counts as humorous in
> the
> > > > courts
> > > > > of eternity.
> > > >
> > > > Very very true.
> > > >
> >
> > Thank you.
>
> Welcome.
>
> >
> > > > It's bad enough when you get priggish people who sit in
> > > > > judgment on each others sense of humour and decide on behalf of
the
> > > world
> > > > > what's funny and what isn't. All the more when someone tries to
> reign
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > sense of humour of the most high. Who made them the arbiter of
what
> is
> > > > funny
> > > > > and what isn't?
> > > > >
> > > > > The definition of classical comedy in Greek drama is that things
> turn
> > > out
> > > > > well in the end. And we know that 'eye hath not seen, nor ear
heard,
> > nor
> > > > > hath entered into the heart of man the things which God hath
> prepared
> > > for
> > > > > them that love him'.
> > > > >
> > > > > The definition of tragedy is that owing to some flaw in the
> character
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > hero, he comes to grief even though the answer was within his
grasp.
> > > > >
> > > > > Throughout the world, the lives of people fall into one of these
two
> > > > > categories, comedy or tragedy, depending on what they do with the
> > > Gospel,
> > > > > the message of Christ, very God and very Man, who suffered and
died
> on
> > > the
> > > > > cross for our sins, paying the punishment for these sins so that
> > anyone
> > > > > entering into a covenant with Him by repentance and faith can be
> saved
> > > to
> > > > > the uttermost, although they have no goodness in themselves.
> > > >
> > > > So even if someone has been nothing but evil all their lives, has
> > > murdered,
> > > > robbed, and raped...if on their deathbed they call to Christ and
> confess
> > > > their sins they automatically get into Heaven?
> > > >
> >
> > Yes, and the sufferings suffered by Christ for that person outstrip by
far
> > the pain he caused to other sinners.
>
> Now see that's one of the things of the xian religions that I have a
serious
> problem with. I feel it's our actions on earth that should determine who
> would get in and who wouldn't. Not whether we call to a particular diety
> asking to save them from eternal damnation.
And this is exactly where we see the offence of the cross.
People want to deserve their salvation, and they can't handle it when they
get told you cannot deserve it.
I'm very happy what we do doesn't determine who goes forward. Lots of
consequences stem from our actions, many earthly trials and the degree of
eternal reward for the saved do stem from righteous deeds, but it is not the
qualifier for salvation. Just as life itself was God's gift and you didn't
deserve it, so it is with eternal life. It is the gift of God bought
through the shed blood of Christ. Nobody deserves to go to heaven any more
than they deserved to be born into this dimension.
>
> >
> > It's also possible for the robbee and rapee and murderee of that person
to
> > have died in rebellion and be looking up at their plunderer in heaven in
> > absolute amazement. But by coming to Christ and getting forgiveness for
> > their own sins instead of applying to human wisdom, they could have had
> > their sufferings compensated beyond all imagining in heaven.
>
> Wait, so if the robber/raper/murderer has accepted Christ, but by some
> chance the victim hasn't...the robber should get into Heaven and the
victim
> not? Do you not see an inherent flaw in that?
None whatsoever. The acceptance or non-acceptance by people of Christ's
sacrifice on their behalf is of far greater significance to God than the
sins he died to pardon.
> >
> > Now human wisdom is such, that the robber and rapist can sue the victim
> for
> > damages if they fight back. I see that as far less just than making
> > salvation dependent on belief in the Gospel, not on works, but do we see
> > atheists making big protests about that? Of course not. It's the
faithless
> > who are chiefly responsible for that state of affairs.
>
> Well, that's debatable. It appears to be fairly common concensus that
many
> of the major problems in the world today are due to religious
> overzealousness.
On the contrary, had there been more religious zeal there wouldn't be the
need for so many wars.
> There have been more wars and deaths over religion than
> probably anything else.
The two world wars, in which more people died than in anything else in
history were not about religion.
Most wars are in fact not about religion. That is just parroting glib
atheist propaganda.
> All because there are groups of people who think
> their faith is the "right" one and everyone who doesn't agree has to
convert
> or die...for their own good no less.
In fact no true Christian has ever tried to 'convert' anyone at gun or
swordpoint. I don't even like using force of argument. It's God, and He
alone, who decides who will come to Him.
> >
> > > > This is
> > > > > available to everyone, and can be brought near to anyone by
reading
> > the
> > > > > Bible and praying. For those who accept the gift of God, namely
> > > salvation
> > > > in
> > > > > Christ, all's well that end's well. For those who turn away
because
> > they
> > > > > reject God and want to know better than God what is right and what
> is
> > > > wrong,
> > > > > are like drowning men who reject the lifeboat that is sent for
them
> > > > because
> > > > > they do not like the colour. Tragic it is, and not funny. But
God's
> > > fault
> > > > it
> > > > > most certainly is not.
> > > >
> > > > The last part is true. I have to find fault that we all need to be
> > > "saved"
> > > > though. Personally I plan on going to the Summerlands...
> > > >
> >
> > I haven't been given a map of Heaven, so I cannot comment about the
exact
> > location of the part you describe.
>
> That's because it's not Heaven. :) Though in some ways the concept could
be
> considered similar.
>
It's not one of those rest homes for the elderly is it?
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > For those who do accept Christ, God shall wipe every tear from
their
> > > eyes
> > > > > and give them a glorious eternal inheritance, in the light of
which
> > the
> > > > > worst of their earthly suffering shall be remembered no more than
a
> > > grown
> > > > > man remembers the pain of cutting his first baby tooth.
> > > >
> > > > Now if he could just help me forget everything while I'm here I'd be
> > > happy.
> > > > :) But then again forgetting everything I've learned won't help
much
> > upon
> > > > my reincarnation as a tree. :D
> > > >
> >
> > I think you may-ple be j-oak-ing.
>
> lol Believe it or not, I'm not kidding. :)
>
That makes me only the sycamore.
> >
> > > > -Shell
> > > > **Not trying to be argumentative, I just love good theological
> debate.**
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Best
> > > > >
> > > > > Uncle Davey
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I love a good theological debate too, and that's why
> > > I added Uncle Davey's fan group to the issue and why
> > > I've put it on again.
> > >
> > > I'm guessing, Shell, that your server doesn't carry
> > > alt.fan.uncle-davey, as your response to him didn't
> > > include alt.fan.uncle-davey.
> >
> > A lot of them don't.
> >
> > If the traffic is kept up, and people ask their ISPs, then more will
take
> > it.
> >
> > Quite a few of the alt. category groups are deserted or just full of
spam,
> > so I can't blame ISPs for not carrying them all by default.
>
> At least some servers seem to be able to get messages there even if it's
not
> offered, which is good.
>
> >
> > > Uncle Davey is an extremely intelligent individual who
> > > can discourse on a number of topics, kind of like that
> > > woman in the U.S. - "Von Savant" or somesuch, who
> > > writes - or used to write - a column in a magazine
> > > answering people's questions, or giving her perspective,
> > > on a number of issues.
> > >
> >
> > Thank you for your kind words.
>
> I'd love to read your column sometime if you can provide a link.
I don't have one, but if you get your ISP to carry my group then you won't
be disappointed if you drop by occasionally.
Best,
Uncle Davey
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