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From: "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.uncle-davey
Subject: Re: Any Puter Experts That Can Help
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:01:11 +0000 (UTC)
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References: <21fj20p5p95pjh6uge6m8rir14osfd9gt7@4ax.com> <slrnc2qcie.1ho.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem> <c0jcqt$qff$0@pita.alt.net> <slrnc2qfnc.1k4.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem> <c0ji3a$7q1$0@pita.alt.net> <GlkYb.5737$_g.4888@twister.socal.rr.com> <892cb437.0402180812.d59da4a@posting.google.com> <8k__b.2508$Bb5.116@twister.socal.rr.com> <892cb437.0402251141.16896912@posting.google.com> <b9b3de8.0402270454.ef64794@posting.google.com> <892cb437.0402271151.6f4f0c9d@posting.google.com> <c1q3ja$muf$0@pita.alt.net> <c1rd4i$qdg$5@gargoyle.oit.duke.edu> <c1shg3$cs1$0@pita.alt.net> <c1tkqi$o9v$4@gargoyle.oit.duke.edu> <c2058n$2d0$0@pita.alt.net> <bqN0c.126115$hR.2409669@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <c209bf$a8v$0@pita.alt.net> <wg01c.130868$hR.2486485@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <c246j6$br9$0@pita.alt.net> <s8o1c.68608$aH3.2098812@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <c271qt$7dn$0@pita.alt.net> <PqG1c.71933$aH3.2198363@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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Xref: news.nzbot.com alt.fan.uncle-davey:2908
news:PqG1c.71933$aH3.2198363@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> Uncle Davey wrote:
> > news:s8o1c.68608$aH3.2098812@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >
> >>
> >>Uncle Davey wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>news:wg01c.130868$hR.2486485@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Uncle Davey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>news:bqN0c.126115$hR.2409669@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Uncle Davey wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>In article <c1shg3$cs1$0@pita.alt.net>, noway@jose.com [Uncle
Davey]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>wrote...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
w
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>In article <c1q3ja$muf$0@pita.alt.net>, noway@jose.com [Uncle
> >
> > Davey]
> >
> >>>>>>>>>wrote...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>news:892cb437.0402271151.6f4f0c9d@posting.google.com...
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>branchofjesse@hotmail.com (Jerzy Jakubowski) wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>news:<b9b3de8.0402270454.ef64794@posting.google.com>...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>It's jolly funny that we can find eight toothed hoatzins from
> >
> > 150
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>million years ago and not find eight Australopithecines from
> >
> > 1.5
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>million years ago.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Uncle Davey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>Come off it Davey! You know that this is a load of bollocks!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>Since when did hoatzins have long bony tails? Not to mention
the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>whole
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>suite of other features Archaeopteryx shares with dinosaurs,
as
> >>>
> >>>well
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>as the suite of features it shares with modern birds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>You can't use as an argument "I don't know therefore it isn't
> >>>
> >>>true".
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>Learn something.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>So is this fossil a bird or is it a reptile?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>Both, of course.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>[Aves is now included within Reptilia, for that matter.]
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Since when, and on whose authority?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>I think the formal cladistic redefinition was made during the
> >>>>>>>>1980s, by Gauthier, et al.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>It might have been better to drop the name "Reptilia" and use a
> >>>>>>>>substitute like "Sauropsida"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>
>
>>>>>>>http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Amniota&contgroup=Terrestrial_vertebrate
s
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Say that their names follow
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Gauthier, J., A. G. Kluge, & T. Rowe. 1988b. Amniote phylogeny and
> >>>>>>>>the importance of fossils. Cladistics 4: 105-209.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>That is just downgrading birds, that is.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Not really, it's just placing birds in their correct context.
> >>>>>>>>The content of the group hasn't changed, it's now properly
> >
> > recognized
> >
> >>>>>>>>as a sub-group of theropod Dinosauria. [Which is in turn within
> >>>>>>>>Dinosauria, within Archosauria, within Diapsida, within Reptilia,
> >>>>>>>>within Amniota, etc.]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/avialae.html
> >>>>>>>>http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/coelurosauria.html
> >>>>>>>>http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/theropoda.html
> >>>>>>>>http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/ornithodira.html
> >>>>>>>>http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/archosauromorpha.html
> >>>>>>>>http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/sauropsida.html
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>As compensation, I want Amphibia to join Pisces.
> >>>>>>>>>Or at least, the caecilians should.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Well, in a sense they already are. There is no longer a "Pisces"
as
> >>>>>>>>a recognized taxon. The closest equivalent clades would be groups
> >>>>>>>>like "Vertebrata" or "Gnathostomata", both of which already do
> >
> > include
> >
> >>>>>>>>amphibians.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/vertebrata.html
> >>>>>>>>http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Sarcopterygii&contgroup=Gnathostomata
> >>>>>>>>http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Gnathostomata&contgroup=Vertebrata
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Well I think it's a big nightmare.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I liked the good old days, when you had
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Pisces,
> >>>>>>>Amphibia,
> >>>>>>>Reptilia,
> >>>>>>>Aves and
> >>>>>>>Mammalia.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>You knew were you stood then.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Is there a picture of all these new fangled taxa anywhere?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Try www.tolweb.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>If hoatzins don't have bony tails now, then that's not a big
> >
> > issue.
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>Yes, it is. The presence of a short, fused pygostyle is one of
the
> >>>>>>>>>>identifying features of the modern bird clade. Hoatzins have
> >>>>>>>>>>pygostyles like all other modern birds. Archy had a long
reptilian
> >>>>>>>>>>tail. It also had toothy jaws instead of a beak, long free
clawed
> >>>>>>>>>>fingers instead of fused wing digits, and various other features
> >>>>>>>>>>more like other dinosaurs than like other birds.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>Within
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>cats and dogs, tail length differs greatly.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>Why should you or anyone mistake Archeopteryx for a hoatzin?
It's
> >>>>>>>>>>no closer to hoatzins than to chickens or emus or Norwegian Blue
> >>>>>>>>>>parrots.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>The plumage don't enter into it.
> >>>>>>>>>This is a dead hoatzin.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Well maybe only if all birds are "hoatzins".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>If you're serious about this hoatzin thing, which features of
> >>>>>>>>Archy are the ones that specifically link it with hoatzins. Are
> >>>>>>>>there any at all, other than the wing claws?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>The general shape of the bird looks like a hoatzin.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Except for Archy having jaws with teeth, long fingers, a long bony
> >
> > tail
> >
> >>>>>>and feet adapted for running not grasping tree limbs.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Here's a picture of a Hoatzin
> >>>>>>http://www.mangoverde.com/birdsound/picpages/pic40-1-1.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>That is a truly beautiful photograph.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>and here is a page with several artist's renderings of Archy along
> >
> > with
> >
> >>>>>>a couple of photo's of the skeletons.
> >>>>>>http://dinosauricon.com/genera/archaeopteryx.html
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Ken
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I think they should add that lovely photo to the artists impressions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>At this point I have to conclude you are being obstinate because you
> >>>>find it amusing. I hope you and Lenny have fun flaming each other.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I'm sure he thinks it's fun.
> >>>
> >>>Quite seriously, other than the tail, the other features could be a
> >
> > hoatzin,
> >
> >>>but all the artists impressions show the archaeopteryx with much
shorter
> >>>feathers than the hoatzin has.
> >>
> >>Comparing the animals Archy has a long bony tail. three functional
> >>fingers on each hand, jaws with teeth and significant skeletal features
> >>different from modern birds. Hoatzin has none of these features. You
> >>seem to be obsessed with the small claws of hoatzin chicks, if you
> >>research this you will find that these are almost completely
> >>nonfunctional while Archy has grasping fingers which are clearly fully
> >>functional in the adults.
> >
> >
> >
> > If they are non-functional then why are they there?
>
> I said almost nonfunctional. In chicks the claws may be usable for
> climbing back into the nest if the chick falls out. The fact is that as
> far as I can find this behaviour has never been observed so this is just
> speculation.
>
> >
> > What would they have evolved for?
>
> They appear to be a retained character. No one is saying Hoatzin are not
> very basal neornithes. It may be that at one time it may have been
> common for neornithe chicks to have these sorts of claws. Since we
> almost never find juvenile bird fossils we simply don't know one way or
> another.
>
> >
> > Why do only hoatzins have them?
> >
>
> See above.
>
> >
> >>>What is the actual size of the archaeopteryx? (beak to tail tip and
> >>>wingspan)?
> >>>
> >>
> >>About 45 cm long with about a 50cm wingspan.
> >>
> >>Ken
> >
> >
> > That's about right, for a hoatzin, isn't it?
> >
>
> And for hundreds if not thousands of other species of aves.
>
> When do you plan on dealing with the jaw full of teeth, long bony tail,
> unfused trunk vertebrae, the neck head attachment point and all of the
> other characters which Archy does not have in common with modern birds
> but which Archy does share with dinosaurs.
>
> Ken
>
Maybe it was a little dragon.
Uncle Davey
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