Uncle Davey wrote:
>
>>In article <c1shg3$cs1$0@pita.alt.net>, noway@jose.com [Uncle Davey]
>
> wrote...
>
>>>
>>>>In article <c1q3ja$muf$0@pita.alt.net>, noway@jose.com [Uncle Davey]
>>>
>>>wrote...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>news:892cb437.0402271151.6f4f0c9d@posting.google.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>branchofjesse@hotmail.com (Jerzy Jakubowski) wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>>news:<b9b3de8.0402270454.ef64794@posting.google.com>...
>>>>
>>>>>>>It's jolly funny that we can find eight toothed hoatzins from 150
>>>>>>>million years ago and not find eight Australopithecines from 1.5
>>>>>>>million years ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Uncle Davey
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Come off it Davey! You know that this is a load of bollocks!
>>>>>>Since when did hoatzins have long bony tails? Not to mention the
>
> whole
>
>>>>>>suite of other features Archaeopteryx shares with dinosaurs, as well
>>>>>>as the suite of features it shares with modern birds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You can't use as an argument "I don't know therefore it isn't true".
>>>>>>Learn something.
>>>>
>>>>>So is this fossil a bird or is it a reptile?
>>>>
>>>>Both, of course.
>>>>
>>>>[Aves is now included within Reptilia, for that matter.]
>>>
>>>Since when, and on whose authority?
>>
>>I think the formal cladistic redefinition was made during the
>>1980s, by Gauthier, et al.
>>
>>It might have been better to drop the name "Reptilia" and use a
>>substitute like "Sauropsida"
>>
>>http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Amniota&contgroup=Terrestrial_vertebrates
>>
>>Say that their names follow
>>
>>Gauthier, J., A. G. Kluge, & T. Rowe. 1988b. Amniote phylogeny and
>>the importance of fossils. Cladistics 4: 105-209.
>>
>>
>>>That is just downgrading birds, that is.
>>
>>Not really, it's just placing birds in their correct context.
>>The content of the group hasn't changed, it's now properly recognized
>>as a sub-group of theropod Dinosauria. [Which is in turn within
>>Dinosauria, within Archosauria, within Diapsida, within Reptilia,
>>within Amniota, etc.]
>>
>>http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/avialae.html
>>http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/coelurosauria.html
>>http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/theropoda.html
>>http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/ornithodira.html
>>http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/archosauromorpha.html
>>http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/sauropsida.html
>>
>>
>>>As compensation, I want Amphibia to join Pisces.
>>>Or at least, the caecilians should.
>>
>>Well, in a sense they already are. There is no longer a "Pisces" as
>>a recognized taxon. The closest equivalent clades would be groups
>>like "Vertebrata" or "Gnathostomata", both of which already do include
>>amphibians.
>>
>>http://dinosauricon.com/taxa/vertebrata.html
>>http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Sarcopterygii&contgroup=Gnathostomata
>>http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Gnathostomata&contgroup=Vertebrata
>>
>
>
> Well I think it's a big nightmare.
>
> I liked the good old days, when you had
>
> Pisces,
> Amphibia,
> Reptilia,
> Aves and
> Mammalia.
>
> You knew were you stood then.
>
> Is there a picture of all these new fangled taxa anywhere?
>
Try www.tolweb.org
>
>
>
>>>>>If hoatzins don't have bony tails now, then that's not a big issue.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, it is. The presence of a short, fused pygostyle is one of the
>>>>identifying features of the modern bird clade. Hoatzins have
>>>>pygostyles like all other modern birds. Archy had a long reptilian
>>>>tail. It also had toothy jaws instead of a beak, long free clawed
>>>>fingers instead of fused wing digits, and various other features
>>>>more like other dinosaurs than like other birds.
>>>>
>>>>Within
>>>>
>>>>>cats and dogs, tail length differs greatly.
>>>>
>>>>Why should you or anyone mistake Archeopteryx for a hoatzin? It's
>>>>no closer to hoatzins than to chickens or emus or Norwegian Blue
>>>>parrots.
>>>
>>>The plumage don't enter into it.
>>>This is a dead hoatzin.
>>
>>Well maybe only if all birds are "hoatzins".
>>
>>If you're serious about this hoatzin thing, which features of
>>Archy are the ones that specifically link it with hoatzins. Are
>>there any at all, other than the wing claws?
>
>
> The general shape of the bird looks like a hoatzin.
>
Except for Archy having jaws with teeth, long fingers, a long bony tail
and feet adapted for running not grasping tree limbs.
Here's a picture of a Hoatzin
http://www.mangoverde.com/birdsound/picpages/pic40-1-1.html
and here is a page with several artist's renderings of Archy along with
a couple of photo's of the skeletons.
http://dinosauricon.com/genera/archaeopteryx.html
Ken
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