On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 01:20:59 +0000 (UTC), "Uncle Davey"
<noway@jose.com> wrote:
>
>U?ytkownik "Mujin" <baka@hornedking.com> napisa? w wiadomo?ci
>news:dpgt20tgomqgrp8nb0qfrc6q5o5gjspcqh@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 00:33:39 +0000 (UTC), "Uncle Davey"
>> <noway@jose.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >U?ytkownik "Mujin" <baka@hornedking.com> napisa? w wiadomo?ci
>> >news:5jus20t93otdn9iq22h6aagamgc4sec6k1@4ax.com...
>> >> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 18:02:49 +0000 (UTC), "Uncle Davey"
>> >> <noway@jose.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >U?ytkownik "Mujin" <baka@hornedking.com> napisa? w wiadomo?ci
>> >> >news:hens209vg2g72vedir0cpcdeuauumfssak@4ax.com...
>> >> >> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:00:37 +0000 (UTC), "Uncle Davey"
>> >> >> <noway@jose.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >U?ytkownik "Mujin" <baka@hornedking.com> napisa? w wiadomo?ci
>> >> >> >news:bgfs20li5pnobgeaub6l0bfdpvt2fkuh2h@4ax.com...
>> >> >> >> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:41:14 +0000 (UTC), "Uncle Davey"
>> >> >> >> <noway@jose.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >U?ytkownik "Mujin" <baka@hornedking.com> napisa? w wiadomo?ci
>> >> >> >> >news:2ttq2099jts2u65hin31nbethpibnv30qv@4ax.com...
>> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 01:13:35 +0000 (UTC), Cheezits
>> >> >> >> >> <cheezits32@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >[etc.]
>> >> >> >> >> >> He said "Alexey, you didn't translate what I said". To
>which
>> >the
>> >> >> >> >> >> translator said. "No, I translated what you OUGHT to have
>> >said."
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> Sometimes good translation is like that.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >That is not good translation. That is lying.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> That's not any kind of translation, actually. It's the kind
>of
>> >> >> >> >> distortion that can lead to a professional association
>certified
>> >> >> >> >> translator suddenly becoming an uncertified translator, if you
>> >take
>> >> >my
>> >> >> >> >> meaning. Clients aren't paying for paraphrasing.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >In what country?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> In any country in which I have worked as a translator.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >You obviously haven't heard of 'dynamic equivalence'.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I certainly have - but paraphrasing isn't dynamic equivalence.
>In
>> >> >> >> your "parable" the intended message of the client was drastically
>> >> >> >> changed as a result of paraphrase. The point of dynamic
>equivalence
>> >> >> >> is to replace highly idiomatic or culturally specific (and
>therefore
>> >> >> >> poorly interchangeable) terms with terms which, while having
>> >different
>> >> >> >> literal meanings, carry roughly the same nuance. Thus, one would
>> >not
>> >> >> >> translate the Japanese term "kusojiji" as "stinky grandfather" in
>> >> >> >> English - although the literal meaning is obviously intended as
>an
>> >> >> >> insult, it doesn't have any particular meaning. "Old fart" would
>be
>> >> >> >> closer to the intended meaning - and of course would not be
>> >translated
>> >> >> >> as "furui he" in Japanese since it doesn't really mean anything
>> >> >> >> (although the intent is obvious).
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Naturally, dynamic equivalence can be applied to larger
>> >constructions
>> >> >> >> as well, but the intent of the original author should never be
>> >> >> >> changed. This is why interpreters often serve as cultural
>> >consultants
>> >> >> >> for their clients - cutting off inappropriate modes of
>communication
>> >> >> >> before they start. I have on more than one occasion advised
>clients
>> >> >> >> on the most culturally appropriate approach to a meeting, and of
>> >> >> >> course I always use dynamic equivalence to properly render the
>> >> >> >> client's idioms where I think it's appropriate.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> But actually changing the client's meaning? That would be a lie.
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> K
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >In this case, it involved the use of higher skills. Would you
>rather
>> >lie
>> >> >or
>> >> >> >be an accessory to murder?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I would rather stop interpreting and recommend to the client he
>> >> >> moderate his language as the terms he is using are likely to provoke
>a
>> >> >> violent reaction in his audience than violate my contract (and
>> >> >> possibly commit fraud depending on local laws) by presenting a
>> >> >> translation that is not true to both the literal meaning and intent
>of
>> >> >> the original.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But then I require clients to provide me with a precis of
>> >> >> presentations/speeches ahead of time, followed by a consultation on
>> >> >> appropriate modes of delivery for the audience. I don't personally
>> >> >> know a translator who doesn't follow this procedure for public
>> >> >> speaking engagements.
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> K
>> >> >
>> >> >This guy worked for the factory. What could he do?
>> >>
>> >> So, to get things straight, he wasn't a professional translator but
>> >> someone who happened to be able to speak both languages with some
>> >> proficiency? Or do you mean he *was* a professional, but receiving
>> >> his pay cheque from the factory rather than from the speaker?
>> >>
>> >> In the first case, it would have behooved him to ask for a copy of the
>> >> "speech" in advance so that it could be translated line by line, with
>> >> the two of them alternating (original first, of course). This is what
>> >> I've seen done in other circumstances. The only alternative is to
>> >> simply ask the speaker to pause at logical points and then provide a
>> >> summary of what was said in the target language. Note that this isn't
>> >> translation: it's a brief summary of what the bilingual individual
>> >> understands the speaker to have meant.
>> >>
>> >> In the second case, he may have been employed by the factory but at
>> >> that moment in time his job was to serve the needs of the foreign
>> >> guest; as such the guest is temporarily his client and deserves the
>> >> same level of service as any other client.
>> >>
>> >> You're right, in that circumstance, knowing what to do and how to do
>> >> it without letting anyone get unnecessarily offended (or injured!) is
>> >> a very complex and difficult problem.
>> >>
>> >> That's why full time professional interpreters ask so much for their
>> >> services.
>> >>
>> >> (I only rarely serve as an interpreter, and translate sporadically, so
>> >> I don't count as a full-time professional interpreter FWIW)
>> >> --
>> >> K
>> >>
>> >> While the cat's away, the mice can play.
>> >> Proverb of Unknown Origin
>> >>
>> >
>> >I can tell you something, a text translator has to have only a fraction
>of
>> >the diplomacy and interpersonal skill that a business facilitator who is
>> >translating does.
>>
>> This is something I already know - as I said, I *do* serve as an
>> interpreter, I just don't do it often. In the past, I have had to do
>> it more often than I do now.
>>
>> >
>> >This guy felt embarrassed about it afterwards, but I said to him, Alexey,
>> >you did the right thing. It was part of his loyalty to the chief not to
>let
>> >the chief wreck the entire project andf put his own health at risk. Later
>> >on, it was others such as me and the general director locally who
>explained
>> >to him about not talking that way.
>>
>> In the moral sense of wanting to prevent an unnecessary altercation,
>> his goal was the right thing. There are better ways of achieving it
>> unless you have been paid to be a simultaneous translator, a job you
>> couldn't pay me enough to do.
>>
>
>You don't know how much I could pay, my friend.
I don't care how much you could pay. For a variety of reasons I have
elected not to accept jobs involving simultaneous translation. I do
uncoached conversational sequential interpreting, but not simultaneous
translation.
--
K
In baiting a mousetrap with cheese, always leave room for the mouse.
Greek Proverb
|
| Follow-ups: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 |
| 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | 52 | 53 | 54 | 55 | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 |
| 60 | 61 | 62 | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | 75 | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 | 82 | 83 | 84 | 85 | 86 | 87 | 88 | 89 |
| 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | 96 | 97 | 98 | 99 | 100 | 101 | 102 | 103 | 104 | 105 | 106 | 107 | 108 | 109 | 110 | 111 | 112 | 113 | 114 | 115 | 116 | 117 | 118 | 119 |
| 120 | 121 | 122 | 123 | 124 | 125 | 126 | 127 | 128 | 129 | 130 | 131 | 132 | 133 | 134 | 135 | 136 | 137 | 138 | 139 | 140 | 141 | 142 | 143 | 144 | 145 | 146 | 147 | 148 | 149 |
| 150 | 151 | 152 | 153 | 154 | 155 | 156 | 157 | 158 | 159 | 160 | 161 | 162 | 163 | 164 | 165 | 166 | 167 | 168 | 169 | 170 | 171 | 172 | 173 | 174 | 175 | 176 | 177 | 178 | 179 |
| 180 | 181 |
|