Uzytkownik "James Hajicek" <hajicek@execpc.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:3F7BF961.E13C1466@execpc.com...
I can't deal with all the points as there is little time, so I am just
dealing with the ones that are not also ongoing in the other answer I wrote
to you today. There is obviously a lot of overlap.
> I wrote:
>
> As for putting other gods before the LORD God, I deny that
> we all do that. For example, we do not ALL decorate our
> homes during the Christmas season with images of that false
> god Santa Claus. At least I do not. If anyone else has
> been doing that, they should stop it immediately.
>
> "Uncle Davey" replied:
>
> I certainly would not give that red robed devil any house
> room, and I'm not teaching my kids to believe in that
> nonsense.
>
> If we cannot have a Christ centred Christmas, I cannot see
> much point in having one at all.
>
> Certainly it is a help to me that here in Poland, we don't
> have Santa Claus at Christmas.
>
> Davey should have told the WHOLE truth. In Poland they have a popular
> myth of "Father Christmas", who is also called the "Star Man". It is
> said there that he brings the children gifts from "Starland". In
> spite of the fact that he is portrayed as being dressed in white and
> gold, instead of in red, that personage represents the same problem in
> Poland as "Santa Claus" does in the United States.
There is no such personage in common knowledge in this country.
What are your sources?
Starman from starland, dressed in white and gold, indeed.
What do you people dream up in that organisation of yours?
You seem to have a Czech or Slovak surname, maybe they have something like
that over there but it is nothing to do with us.
> It is when you begin to lie, cheat, and steal to be able to afford an
> unnecessarily luxurious car that it becomes sinful.
>
> Davey would like you to think that merely owning a car is a sin, and
> that all sins are equally serious. By that false logic, merely owing
> a car or having a job would be as sinful as premeditated murder.
This is as outrageous as the claim about the Starman you made earlier.
>
> ----------
>
> I wrote:
>
> ... It is not enough to merely WANT to quit sinning. The
> essence of repentance is to actually quit sinning:
>
> Matthew 7:23
> John 5:14
> John 8:11
> 2 Timothy 2:19
> Revelation 2:5
> D&C 1:31-32
>
> "Uncle Davey" replied:
>
> I think you'll find it's wanting to.
>
> 'Metanoia' means a change of mind, not a change of body.
> That happens later, at resurrection.
>
> The scripture which I quoted shows that repentance means to QUIT
> SINNING. As long as you expect to continue sinning, you have NOT had
> a "change of mind".
>
> It certainly is strange how Davey thinks that I would "find"
> repentance to mean something different than this, when he does not
> provide a single scripture citation to support anything other than to
> "sin no more".
>
> ----------
>
> I wrote:
>
> Peter called those who cannot cease from having adulterous
> thoughts "brute beasts":
>
> 2 Peter 2:12,14
>
> "Uncle Davey" replied:
>
> There is no doubt that nobody who repents is hoping to go
> back to his sins, but we nevertheless do have a continual
> battle with sin, one which we do not always win.
>
> When we fall, we have an advocate with the father, and he
> sets us back on our feet again, and we get back on the
> programme.
>
> But all the time the life of sanctification is in order to
> be thankful for salvation rather than to gain it.
>
> As I have said REPEATEDLY, there can be atonement and forgiveness for
> sins committed in WEAKNESS or in IGNORANCE.
>
> But Davey wants you to think that there is also forgiveness for ALL
> sins, including WILLFUL and DELIBERATE sins committed after we have
> been converted.
>
Because in fact the will is not free.
> If Satan can get you to believe that lie, then you can be more easily
> tempted into committing serious sins.
>
> The world is wallowing in sin, with rampant theft and adultery
> everywhere. Here in the United States, the shopping malls are open
> seven days a week, with no concern by hardly anyone about either the
> Sabbath or about Sunday. This is the fruit of years and years of
> persistent preaching by false teachers that keeping the commandments
> is unnecessary for salvation:
>
> Serpent in Eden: If you eat of the forbidden fruit, you
> will not surely die. You can eat of the
> tree of life and live forever.
>
> False Preachers: If you break the Ten Commandments, you
> will not surely die. You can repent and
> be forgiven as often as necessary.
>
It is good to keep one day a week holy, in this way we honour God as
creator, and all people should do it.
Nevertheless, if you don't trust to Christ's righteousness, but make an
issue out of your own sabbath keeping as recommmending you to God, it won't
help you.
> ----------
>
> "Uncle Davey" wrote:
>
> It is not right to place limitations on what Christ's blood
> can forgive.
>
> Once yes, but not over and over again.
>
> Jesus came to save sinners, but he cannot do that while they CONTINUE
> in deliberate and wilful sin.
>
You are placing limitations.
There are no such limitations.
"....Whosoever believeth on him shall not perish, but have everlasting
life".
Are we believing that promise here or are we not?
> Sins of ignorance or weakness can be forgiven, even after people have
> been converted. But beware, because God knows what each person ought
> to be capable of doing. There is no excuse for ignorance by
> neglecting to study, or for weakness by failing to struggle against
> the devil.
>
We always fail.
We are always without excuse.
We are always excused, because we know we are without excuse.
> ----------
>
> "Uncle Davey" wrote:
>
> He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to
> cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. And this was written to
> believers after their conversion. From your theology this
> should only have been said to people who were not yet in the
> covenant with God.
>
> John wrote that the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin and from
> all unrighteousness, 1 John 1:7,9. But he did NOT write that with
> the intention of encouraging people to continue sinning. He went on
> to warn that those who have been saved will NOT sin:
>
> 1 John 2:3-4
> 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his
> commandments.
> 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his
> commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
>
Yes, we need to make an effort to keep to the commandments, but that is a
natural effect of godly sorrow over sin.
It DOESN'T SAVE US. The blood of Christ saves us to the uttermost, not part
way, with the rest done by us.
> He warned that those who are truly saved ought to behave in the same
> way as Jesus behaved:
>
> 1 John 2:6
> 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to
> walk, even as he walked.
>
That would include 'on water' if you take it to a literal conclusion, so
therefore we need to look for the real meaning. Christlikeness is what we
hope to achieve in our life of sanctification. But if we could really be
righteuosness ourselves, the death of Christ would have been for nothing.
> John was writing to people who he felt had successfully overcome the
> devil, and had quit sinning:
>
> 1 John 2:13-14
> 13 ... I write unto you, young men, because ye have
> overcome the wicked one. ...
> 14 ... I have written unto you, young men, because ye are
> strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have
> overcome the wicked one.
>
By faith, though. Not works.
> John wrote these things to WARN them against false teachers who would
> attempt to seduce them with a different doctrine:
>
> 1 John 2:26
> 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them
> that seduce you.
>
> But Davey claims that it is impossible to keep the commandments, that
> it is impossible to do what Jesus did, and that it is impossible to
> overcome the devil. Davey claims that you need to be forgiven AGAIN
> and AGAIN.
>
That's fair. You've managed to quote me fairly this time. I am saying we
cannot keep the commandments.
I cannot personally please God in my own strength for two or three minutes
at a time, or maybe seconds, I don't know.
> The people that John warned about, namely "those that seduce you", are
> people like Davey.
>
Like your prophet, Joseph Smith.
And you, but on the other hand you're a victim in this. But God calleth yet,
and you can be free.
> ----------
>
> "Uncle Davey" wrote:
>
> And doesn't the history of God's dealings with Israel teach
> us anything about the nature of His longsuffering towards
> those He has chosen?
>
> As I already explained, God's repeated forgiveness of Israel, as a
> nation, is possible only because in each generation the nation of
> Israel consists of DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
>
> Instead of acknowledging this, Davey simply repeated his same stale
> argument.
>
The Nation of Israel shows us many things which refer to the individual.
In some ways Christ is personally identified, in the flight to Egypt, the
later return, the forty days and nights in the wilderness echoing the forty
years, etc etc, but in the cycle of sin and restoration, bliss and falling
away then restoration again, Israel echoes the experience of the individual
christian. Hosea will show you that matter, if you read it carefully.
> ----------
>
> "Uncle Davey" wrote:
>
> We have to confess our sins, be sorry for them, sincerely
> mean to depart from them, and do the best we can, but even
> where we fail, God has shown that the blood of Christ has
> paid for our sin.
>
> If we are truly doing "the best we can", we can be forgiven for sins
> of weakness "where we fail". I have never denied this.
>
> The issue has always been whether or not there is repeated forgiveness
> for DELIBERATE and WILLFUL sins:
>
> Hebrews 10:26-27
> 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the
> knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice
> for sins,
> 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery
> indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
>
I can only say that if someone plans to keep sinning and wants to keep
sinning and doesn't resolve each time to fight these sins, then obviously
they are not penitent.
But someone who is penitent, and really makes a better job of their fight
against sin than another brother, who is also penitent, but weaker, then
which brother is more saved?
Neither! They are both covered by the blood of Christ.
> ----------
>
> "Uncle Davey" wrote:
>
> We don't add anything to Christ's imputed righteousness when
> we manage to obey. He has given us the pure white wedding
> garment, and if we put our righteousness on on top of that,
> we have put filthy rags on the wedding garment, for ALL OUR
> righteousness - not 'unbelievers' righteousnesses' are as
> filthy rags. You missed that one as well.
>
> Davey implies that by being righteous we are putting on "filthy rags".
> That is the disgusting lie which I am resisting here.
All our righteousness is as filthy rags.
Its not a lie, it's scripture.
Just like the wedding garment is scripture. The wedding garment is given to
the bride by the groom. She doesn't buy her own bridal dress.
>
> Those who continue to sin, after having once been saved, are the ones
> the ones who become filthy again:
>
> 2 Peter 2:20-22
> 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the
> world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus
> Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the
> latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
> 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the
> way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to
> turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
> 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true
> proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the
> sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
>
> ----------
>
We get filthy again, so we wash again.
Just like physical dirt. That's why we have the analogy of washing. It's
like real life washing, which is repetitive.
> I wrote:
>
> The rich man in hell was clearly repentant, Luke 16;24.
> Anyone who claims that salvation is impossible at that stage
> for a repentant man does not believe that God is merciful.
>
> "Uncle Davey" replied:
>
> Nevertheless, as far as we are aware, it is given to man
> once to die, and after than the judgement.
>
> Davey is denying the extent of God's mercy by claiming that those
> unfortunate people in hell cannot repent and be saved.
I'm afraid as far as we are told in scripture the game's up once you're
dead.
>
> Davey claims that God wants people to suffer for all eternity.
>
> I claim that God wants to save everyone who can possibly be saved, if
> not in this life, then in hell, or in the next life after the
> resurrection.
>
> It is clearly stated in Revelation 20:7-9 that there is a continued
> rebellion against God, AFTER the resurrection. It is clearly stated
> in Revelation 20:6,9 that there is a "second death". Maybe Davey is
> not "aware" of this, but John was, and now so are we.
>
I don't claim to be massively hot on Revelation but there are many
interpretations of this that are different to yours.
I don't believe that the Resurrection has to do long with the current earth.
I don't believe people in their resurrection bodies will dwell in the
time-space continuum for long. Certainly Jesus in His resurrection body was
quick to depart. Only don't ask me what it's like where we go, for eye hath
not seen, nor ear heard, nor hath entered into the heart of man, those
things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.
> Davey is clinging to the following:
>
> Hebrews 9:27
> 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
> this the judgment:
>
> I suppose it is possible that writer of Hebrews was unaware of the
> "second death". However, it is likely that the problem here is with
> an ignorant interpretation of the Greek word "apax". This is
> translated here as "once", but it does not necessarily mean "once and
> only once". The Greek word "apax" is looser than that. For example:
>
Your only answer is to undermine the authority of scripture and say I am
'clinging to' a verse, like that's a bad thing.
> Jude 1:3
> 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of
> the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto
> you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the
> faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
I can't see what this has to do with hell and extra chances after death.
>
> This does NOT mean that the Gospel was preached ONLY "once", or "one
> time only".
>
> ----------
>
> "Uncle Davey" wrote:
>
> One of the reasons I find it hard to believe that people can
> change their eternal destination after death is that things
> are already haapening for them outside the time-space
> continuum, ie. in eternity. They are already in eternity,
> once they die.
>
> That is utter fantasy which has no scriptural basis whatever. Davey
> comes close there to denying the resurrection of the body.
I personally believe that the resurrection body is very different to this
body.
It is built to handle short periods in this dispensation, but is meant to
last for ever in eternity.
Because it lasts for ever, there is no need to reproduce by sexual means and
we become like the angels in heaven, neither married
nor given in marriage. Immediately sexual sins are wiped out of existance,
as we are sexless, and so it is with our other sins. We become then sin
free. When we see him, then we are like him. It will not happen before
then.
>
> After the crucifixion, Jesus went to preach to the "spirits in
> prison", 1 Peter 3:19. Obviously he did that with the expectation
> that some of them could be saved.
>
Spiritual beings such as angels that are in disgrace with God are mentioned
in other places also. What agenda God has with these creatures I know not,
but the Lord Christ became a man and died as far as I know for mankind. The
angels have desired to look into our salvation, as Peter also mentions. What
the nature of Christ's dialogue during his time in hell was, and what it
boded for spirit creatures, is beyond my ability to comment. I do not see
this verse as impacting on the reversibility of hell for thiose who reject
christ in their lives, who have dire warnings about the worm dying not and
the fire not being quenched from the lips of Christ Himself.
> After the resurrection, Satan is released from his prison, and he will
> go out one more time to "deceive the nations", Revelation 20:7-8.
> Obviously people continue to choose between right and wrong, even
> after their resurrection.
>
> - James
Some people say after the rapture. I personally would rather wait and see
what it means.
Prophesy is easier to understand once it has come to pass.
Uncle Davey
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