In article <Xns9678950CAE6A9WhyNottherecom@140.99.99.130>, Why-Not
<$9+-Y-Not@there.com> wrote:
>
> "::Y-Not::" <$9+-Y-Not@here.com> wrote in
> news:170620050231444423%$9+-Y-Not@here.com:
>
> > In article
> > <budgetyellowsnow-D2252F.10241615062005@news.titannews.com>,
> > ++TedAlan++ <budgetyellowsnow@cdc.gov> wrote:
> >
> >> In case anyone reading Y-not's important reminder of our
> >> status as a fledgling sentient race of beings feels he is
> >> "reaching" or "rationalizing" the existence of boylove through
> >> the ages, please follow this link and read this article for
> >> confirmation of the premise he puts forward as to the reason
> >> why it is evolutionarily advantageous for adult males of our
> >> species to feel an attraction and affections for boys:
> >>
> >> http://ktla.trb.com/news/nationworld/nation/ktla-na-lostboys13j
> >> un13-lat,0 ,837422.story?coll=ktla-news-1
> >>
> >>
> >> By no means is this instinct's presence and excuse to ABUSE
> >> boys, but it explains the compulsion to spend intimate time
> >> with people who otherwise would be considered a threat to an
> >> intelligent predator.
> Thank you for the link.
You should thank him directly, not in a post to me.
You thank him for a link that supports part of what I wrote, but you
don't thank me for the original post, the value of which he is
expressing. Why? It's obvious. You don't want this information to be
public.
Some may think you do this because you dislike me. But no, anyone of
intelligence knows that good information is just that, and NOT who it
comes from, and would support the sharing of it, in spite of personal
dislikes. We all know that if you attack the person who is sharing good
information, for sharing it, you also attack that very information, and
that you can't have it both ways. If you value the information, you
have to value the provider of it. Since this is so obvious, it's also
obvious that because you attack the poster who is sharing this
information, you don't want it posted.
Of course, if you claim not to understand or accept what I just said,
you will completely prove my above statements. :-)
> >
> > I think that your post should have been with the thread where I
> > posted, or at least in my discussion group, for a wider
> > readership.
> Why?
I suggest you look at your "in the wrong place at the wrong time"
comment. For YOU, there isn't any good time or place for these kinds of
posts, because you prefer people to be ignorant.
> >
> > I have long studied the various sexualities, with the goal of
> > answering the question of WHY. The differenses are too marked
> > and prevalient, not to have had some evolutionary justification
> > for them. There is much supporting information that I didn't
> > include in my post, because I wanted to leave the topics open
> > for discussion, which doesn't seem to have happened.
> I wonder why?
I don't wonder, I know. It's because I told people not to, before. Now
I am saying it's OK.
People are afraid to engage in this kind of discussion because of
Trolls like YOU who will disrupt it, just as you are doing now.
> > Too bad. I
> > had been planning that post for two years, waiting for just the
> > right setup to reply to, with it. I thought there would be some
> > interest. I guess I was wrong.
> TWO YEARS! You waited TWO WHOLE YEARS then you blew it by posting
> in the wrong place at the wrong time!
What would have been the right place? Is five groups not enough places
for you?
It can be reposted as many times as needed. So, what is blown here,
except your brains out your nose?
I'm a reactive poster. I reply to things that act as springboards to
what I plan to express. Presenting new ideas before people are ready
for them, doesn't work well.
This is the right time and place(s) for this, for many reasons beyond
just the obvious. I'm not guessing. Many times in the past two years,
I've asked people if they were interested in having these subjects
explored. The ONLY one who expressed any real interest then (in
public), was KidHacker. That wasn't enough, so I waited for a time when
this issue would have current relevance. Now it does, so I posted it.
The other subjects of equal importance, in this series, can wait for
when there are the right kinds of situations for them. I've already, in
previous posts in asbl, touched lightly on some of these future issues
for exploration.
> Hehehehehehehe! I wait all
> of TWO MINUTES before I send a post and I get an answer from you
> every single time. I can give you posting lessons if you need em.
> How galling it must be that a whole audience are not hanging on
> your every word, begging to join in with a discussion with the
> Master. You could of got REFEREE and HIGH and others to join in
> but it would have been TOO obvius.
Of course you got a response. You replied to me. Most of those DO get a
response. Haven't you noticed this? Or are you just being dense?
I don't post for my own gratification. I post what would benefit
others, according to my stated goals. I respond to posts I can USE, to
further those goals. Most often, I reply to the stupid selfish idiots
who oppose ethical conduct, to show better ways of behavior.
As a reactive poster, I need opposition to be effective. If I don't
have opposition, I have to make people do it. [fake evil grin]
People like YOU enable me to do my job. Thanks a lot! :-)
I haven't been in contact with those two for over a month, or I WOULD
have invited them to join the discussion, even though I know that Ref
wouldn't be interested. The people who I HAVE been in private contact
with, don't seem to have anything to contribute to it in public, beyond
our private discussions. Anyway, that would be old news to me, and they
don't care to expose themselves to people like YOU. I was hoping to
have people who I haven't been in private contact with, help out with
this, because I hope to learn from them, which is something you
obviously oppose.
> > Hey, just think about what else I have ready to post. :-)
> Wait ANOTHER two years why don'cha?
You'd like that, I'd bet. Suppression if information is your Trollish
goal.
By opposing me and what I do, you are also opposing a lot of people who
value all of this. Even those who dislike me, value and USE my help. I
see that all the time. It's actually quite amusing. Well, you are
amusing me too, the way a misbehaving todler does.
> --
> Why_Not? Because YOU said so.
So, now we know. You don't want to be posted what would be of
significant benefit to everyone here. The conclusion from this is that
you are a Troll, of the worst kind. You want people to be ignorant.
You snipped my post, knowing full well what the consequence would be,
so you wanted it to happen. Hello Fort, here we come! :-)
Y Not
[snipped post restored:]
> In article <budgetyellowsnow-D2252F.10241615062005@news.titannews.com>,
> ++TedAlan++ <budgetyellowsnow@cdc.gov> wrote:
>
> > In case anyone reading Y-not's important reminder of our status as a
> > fledgling sentient race of beings feels he is "reaching" or
> > "rationalizing" the existence of boylove through the ages, please follow
> > this link and read this article for confirmation of the premise he puts
> > forward as to the reason why it is evolutionarily advantageous for adult
> > males of our species to feel an attraction and affections for boys:
> >
> > http://ktla.trb.com/news/nationworld/nation/ktla-na-lostboys13jun13-lat,0
> > ,837422.story?coll=ktla-news-1
> >
> >
> > By no means is this instinct's presence and excuse to ABUSE boys, but it
> > explains the compulsion to spend intimate time with people who otherwise
> > would be considered a threat to an intelligent predator.
>
> I didn't address "through the ages" with that post, just the
> pre-cultural and minimal culture ages. That was anthropology.
> For the more recent ages, and the social benefits (affecting societies'
> survival) of such things, we would need to go into sociology. There is
> MUCH more there than you may think.
> Hint:
> Contraception, or rather, the lack of it.
>
> If it wouldn't put your personal security at risk, I would be
> interested to know how you came across this. It's possible, if I know,
> that I may be able to find more of the like.
>
> Well, it's not as bad as asking where the movies come from. :-)
>
> I think that your post should have been with the thread where I posted,
> or at least in my discussion group, for a wider readership.
>
> I have long studied the various sexualities, with the goal of answering
> the question of WHY. The differenses are too marked and prevalient, not
> to have had some evolutionary justification for them.
> There is much supporting information that I didn't include in my post,
> because I wanted to leave the topics open for discussion, which doesn't
> seem to have happened. Too bad. I had been planning that post for two
> years, waiting for just the right setup to reply to, with it.
> I thought there would be some interest. I guess I was wrong.
>
> Hey, just think about what else I have ready to post. :-)
>
> Another word about security:
> I caution people to be VERY careful about following web links in the
> posts in these groups. For many people, doing this could place them in
> great danger. In some countries, it's a punishable offense just to
> visit some sites, and who knows how protected our readers are from
> viruses and spyware that they could inadvertently download from some of
> these places? After all, not everyone owns a Mac. :-)
>
> Because of security reasons, I think it's a good idea to post the
> actual article, where feasible, and include the web link for the more
> ah, adventurous readers.
> So, the article follows after my sign off.
>
>
> Take care,
>
>
> Y Not
>
>
> *************************************************
> The article:
>
> From the Los Angeles Times
>
> COLUMN ONE
>
> Lost to the Only Life They Knew
>
> Officials say more than 400 teenage boys have fled or been driven from
> a polygamous sect.
>
> By David Kelly
> Times Staff Writer
>
> June 13, 2005
>
> ST. GEORGE, Utah -- Abandoned by his family, faith and community,
> Gideon Barlow arrived here an orphan from another world.
>
> At first, he played the tough guy, aloof and hard. But when no one was
> watching, he would cry.
>
> The freckle-faced 17-year-old said he was left to fend for himself
> last year after being forced out of Colorado City, Ariz., a town about
> 40 miles east of here, just over the state line.
>
> "I couldn't see how my mom would let them do what they did to me," he
> said.
>
> When he tried to visit her on Mother's Day, he said, she told him to
> stay away. When he begged to give her a present, she said she wanted
> nothing.
>
> "I am dead to her now," he said.
>
> or been driven out of the polygamous enclaves of Hildale, Utah, and
> Colorado City over the last four years.
>
> His stated offenses: wearing short-sleeved shirts, listening to CDs
> and having a girlfriend. Other boys say they were booted out for going
> to movies, watching television and staying out past curfew.
>
> Some say they were sometimes given as little as two hours' notice
> before being driven to St. George or nearby Hurricane, Utah, and left
> like unwanted pets along the road.
>
> Authorities say the teens aren't really being expelled for what they
> watch or wear, but rather to reduce competition for women in places
> where men can have dozens of wives.
>
> "It's a mathematical thing. If you are marrying all these girls to one
> man, what do you do with all the boys?" said Utah Atty. Gen. Mark
> Shurtleff, who has had boys in his office crying to see their mothers.
> "People have said to me: 'Why don't you prosecute the parents?' But the
> kids don't want their parents prosecuted; they want us to get the No. 1
> boys."
>
> The 49-year-old Jeffs is the prophet, or leader, of the Fundamentalist
> Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The FLDS, as it is known,
> controls Hildale and Colorado City.
>
> The sect, which broke from the Mormon Church more than a century ago,
> has between 10,000 and 15,000 members. It believes in "plural
> marriage," that a man must have at least three wives to reach the
> highest levels of heaven. The Mormon Church forbids polygamy and
> excommunicates those who practice it.
>
> Polygamy is also illegal, and in recent weeks law enforcement has
> turned up the heat on the FLDS.
>
> On Friday, Jeffs was indicted in Arizona on charges that he had
> arranged a marriage between a 28-year-old man, who was already married,
> and a 16-year-old girl.
>
> He faces two years in prison if convicted, though he hasn't been
> arrested and is thought to be in Texas.
>
> A few days earlier, a Utah judge froze the assets of the United Effort
> Plan, an FLDS trust that owns most of the homes and land in the
> polygamous towns. And on May 24, the records of the financially
> troubled Colorado City Unified School District were seized to prevent
> any evidence of potential wrongdoing from being spirited away,
> according to the Arizona attorney general's office.
>
> At the same time, Jeffs is being sued by five of the Lost Boys, who
> claim he conspired to banish them so church elders would have less
> competition for wives.
>
> Jeffs has not responded to the lawsuit, filed in Utah's 3rd District
> Court, leaving him open to a default judgment from the bench.
>
> "There is a virtual Taliban down there. You tell people this stuff
> happens and they don't believe it," said Dan Fischer, a former FLDS
> member and dentist living outside Salt Lake City who helps educate and
> house the exiled teens. The exodus "has been far more dramatic in the
> last year."
>
> FLDS officials rarely speak to the media. But church lawyer Rodney
> Parker, who isn't a member of the faith, said some of the ousted boys
> were delinquents or proved unable to live up to the community's strict
> moral code.
>
> "I think many are minimizing their own behavior," he said. "These
> places are very different and very strange. But broad-stroke claims
>
> About half a dozen boys who spoke recently say it's all too real.
>
> Tom Sam Steed said he was put on "religious probation" at 15 for
> sneaking off to see the film "Charlie's Angels." Shortly after, he said
> he was ejected from the FLDS, living temporarily in a tool shed. When
> he begged to return to the church, he said he was refused.
>
> "I was really into the religion. I would have been the first to drink
> the poison Kool-Aid," said Steed, now 19. "I felt [the faith] was the
> only way to go to heaven."
>
> He said he made a personal plea to Jeffs, meeting him in a Colorado
> City print shop.
>
> "He told me I wasn't welcome," Steed said. "And on the way out he
> said: 'Just to let you know, when the final devastation comes, you will
> be destroyed.' I believed it completely. If you are told your whole
> life the Earth is flat, what else would you believe?"
>
> Many of the exiled boys express affection for their hometowns, but
> seldom for the FLDS.
>
> "It wasn't so bad until I got some knowledge of the world and saw how
> they treated us," said John Jessop, 16, who said he was thrown out two
> years ago. "I would definitely go live there again with my family. It's
> a great place, but I want no part of the religion."
>
> Once children are expelled, the FLDS forbids parents from visiting
> them, and violating the rule can result in eviction from their
> church-owned homes, say state authorities and former town residents.
> Many parents sever all ties to their sons.
>
> In some cases, families outside the communities have unofficially
> adopted the boys.
>
> That's what happened to Gideon. A Mormon couple, Stacha and Neil
> Glauser of St. George, took him in.
>
> "Taking Gideon was an impulsive thing," said Stacha Glauser, a
> 47-year-old hairdresser with two other teenagers. "I just couldn't
> stand seeing a kid kicked out into the streets."
>
> As a child, she heard strange stories about the polygamous towns,
> stories of men with dozens of wives, hundreds of children and homes the
> size of barns.
>
> According to Gideon, he is one of 71 children born to his father,
> 73-year-old Dan Barlow, and his father's eight wives.
>
> The Barlows were among Colorado City's first settlers and have served
> as political leaders and lawmen. Gideon's father was mayor.
>
> But last year Jeffs called a meeting. He announced that Dan Barlow and
> 20 other men were being expelled. His reasons were never fully
> explained.
>
> Then he "reassigned" their wives and children to other men, say local
> authorities and witnesses.
>
> "Warren said, 'All who agree with the decision stand up,' and I stood
> up," Gideon said. "I stood because I was scared. My dad left that day."
>
> listening to music, wearing short-sleeved shirts and mingling with
> girls. The pressure built. His mother made a pile of his CDs and shirts
> to toss out. Finally, he said, Jeffs gave the order for him to leave.
>
> When Gideon called his exiled father in St. George for help, he was
> rebuffed.
>
> "He told me we had two different goals," Gideon said. "He wanted to
> get back into the community and said he couldn't help me."
>
> Dan Barlow could not be reached for comment.
>
> Gideon was staying with friends in St. George when the Glausers heard
> of his plight from a woman sympathetic to the Lost Boys.
>
> "When Gideon came, he didn't know how to act around people," Stacha
> Glauser said. "This was like a foreign country for him."
>
> Like many kids from his hometown, Gideon's poor education left his
> vocabulary wanting. When he was hungry, for instance, he asked Glauser
> to "build" him something to eat.
>
> "I met his mother once; she was just a baby when she had him," Glauser
> said. "I told her she had a really wonderful son. She said she did the
> best she could, and that was it."
>
> Last summer, five of the boys who left Colorado City and Hildale filed
> their lawsuit, claiming they were excommunicated unfairly. Gideon is
> not part of the suit.
>
> Joanne Suder, a Baltimore lawyer and lead counsel in the case, said
> the expulsions had resulted in emotional and psychological damage to
> her clients.
>
> "They are clearly trying to get rid of the competition. Warren Jeffs
> himself is reputed to have 70 wives," Suder said. "These kids are
> kicked out and lose the only world they ever knew. They leave without
> an education and can have no further contact with their family. It's
> horrible."
>
> Despite the open practice of polygamy in these towns, authorities have
> been careful how they pursue offenders.
>
> In 1953, Arizona state police swarmed into Short Creek, now Colorado
> City. They arrested the men and transported crying women and children
> to detention camps. The result was a public outpouring of sympathy for
> Howard Pyle, lost the next election.
>
> Today, law enforcement officials are going after the FLDS by targeting
> child sexual abuse, welfare fraud and tax evasion rather than polygamy.
> The Arizona attorney general's office has opened a branch in Colorado
> City, where an investigator looks into alleged illegalities.
>
> In 2003, Rodney Holm, a Colorado City police officer, was sentenced to
> a year in prison and three years' probation on charges of bigamy and
> unlawful sex with two girls, 16 and 17. Another FLDS member, Orson
> William Black Jr., was charged with child sex crimes and is still at
> large.
>
> Meanwhile, authorities believe Jeffs has left Colorado City and may be
> staying with family at a 1,600-acre compound the FLDS is building near
> Eldorado, Texas.
>
> The spiritual heart of the church lies in Hildale and Colorado City,
> communities a mile apart with a combined population of about 10,000.
>
> The towns sit at the foot of the remote and majestic Vermillion
> Cliffs, a place of red rock isolation. Women walk the streets in
> bonnets and trousers under long dresses. Their hair is pinned high on
> their heads, often with a braided ponytail hanging in back.
>
> Many of the boys said children didn't attend school past the eighth
> offspring of Cain and doomed to slavery. Such views have earned the
> FLDS a hate-group designation by the Southern Poverty Law Center.
>
> The children are told that dinosaurs came from another planet, and man
> never walked on the moon. More important, they learn the outside world
> is wicked and salvation comes through obedience to the prophet, who
> channels God's will.
>
> According to those inside and outside the community, this way of life
> has become even stricter since Jeffs took over in 2002. Competitive
> Swimming is frowned upon, and talking to a girl can earn a boy a visit
> from the local police.
>
> Ross Chatwin, who lives in Colorado City, said when Jeffs took charge,
> "rumors started going around that if you weren't obedient, you would be
> kicked out."
>
> Chatwin, 36, was ordered out last year for trying to marry a second
> wife without the prophet's permission. He refused to budge from his
> sparsely furnished home in the center of town, and now is in a legal
> battle with the city, which once moved another family into his house
> and briefly shut off his utilities.
>
> "The kids here are giving up hope," Chatwin said. "There is nothing
> for them anymore."
>
> Hildale Mayor David Zitting, an FLDS member, said the exiled boys were
> defiant.
>
> "The people in this community have certain standards and values,"
> Zitting said. "If you have a son or daughter in your home, and their
> behavior got worse and worse and they defied you, wouldn't you want
> them to leave?"
>
> Girls are rarely banished for improper behavior; but there have been
> several high-profile cases of girls running away to avoid arranged
> marriages or escape sexual abuse.
>
> The first stop for many boys is Hurricane or St. George, where a
> network for exiles exists. They often share apartments or sleep on
> couches while trying to find work. Some end up in Las Vegas or Salt
> Lake City.
>
> Fischer, the former FLDS member who runs the Diversity Foundation in
> suburban Salt Lake City, wants to raise awareness about the boys as
> well as provide them with housing and further their education.
>
> "The sole purpose of this foundation is to maintain a relationship
> with the Lost Boys," said Dave Bills, managing director of the
> organization. "I keep tabs on them. I offer them programs to get
> educated. Education is the key to this whole thing."
>
> The boys working with the foundation are either in school or getting
> their GEDs. If they want to attend college, the Diversity Foundation
> will pay for it.
>
> Bills said that many of the Lost Boys had emotional problems and
> turned to drugs or alcohol. "Imagine being 16 years old and asked, 'If
> you had one wish, what would it be?' These kids say, 'I'd love to see
> my mom.' "
>
> Gideon has pretty much given up on that.
>
> He attends high school in St. George and is learning to navigate, even
> embrace, the world he was once warned against.
>
> His cellphone rings often. Regular sessions with a therapist have made
> it easier to talk about his past, and he doesn't flinch anymore when
> classmates call him "the polygamist."
>
> He is coming to grips with being abandoned, and no longer cries when
> talking about his family.
>
> "If you have 71 brothers and sisters in the house, how can you
> establish a relationship with your father?" he asked.
>
> As for his mother, Gideon is moving on.
>
> "This is my mom," he said, nodding toward Glauser. "She treats me the
> way a mother should treat a son. She wakes me in the morning. She
> always talks to me. I don't know if I could ever pay her back."
>
> As traumatic as the experience has been, Gideon said, it has taught
> him a crucial lesson about family and faith.
>
> "No loving God would tear a family apart," he said. "Because a family
> is meant to be together."
>
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