On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:20:54 -0500, 4s00th <4s00th@hushmail.com>
wrote:
>On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:58:59 -0700, HMS Victor Victorian
><victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:35:20 -0500, 4s00th <4s00th@hushmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:12:51 -0700, HMS Victor Victorian
>>><victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:36:26 -0500, 4s00th <4s00th@hushmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:13:26 -0500, Chester Azziz <chet@galleria.net>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>I have to question your taste in this matter. Look, I'm not oblivious
>>>>>to the fact that there is an awful lot of sexual abuse perpetrated by
>>>>>predators out there -- but I really think we need to be sensitive to
>>>>>the boys and girls who are being victimized by these evil bastards. We
>>>>>should know better than most that it is certainly possible to control
>>>>>these desires and urges -- even if it causes us pain to know we have
>>>>>to hold back. But we are boy-lovers -- LOVERS! The idea of satisfying
>>>>>our own selfish needs by possibly harming those boys we love is
>>>>>anathema to us.
>>>>>
>>>>>And, just to be honest with you, the constant coverage of this story
>>>>>by ESPN hasn't been terribly good for my own mental health. I think
>>>>>it's partially about knowing my own struggles to remain a boy-lover
>>>>>and not become a predator, but, even worse, it's bringing up a lot of
>>>>>my own issues as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. I've had to
>>>>>really push away from my favorite channel over the past few days to
>>>>>gain a little perspective.
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't like that the news is characterizing these boys as "ruined,"
>>>>>as if they are permanently damaged goods who have little to no chance
>>>>>of happiness -- we all know boys who have become more than mere
>>>>>survivors. I won't say that I'm doing more than surviving, but I've
>>>>>still managed to do a lot of good things with my life despite the
>>>>>pain, despite the problems and despite my self-imposed isolation.
>>>>>Nonetheless, we shouldn't make light of the amount of pain and
>>>>>suffering that these victims of rape have had to deal with over the
>>>>>last few years. Some of them came forth and told -- and were not
>>>>>believed! Some of them came forth and told -- and the legal system
>>>>>totally failed them! And others suffered silently.
>>>>>
>>>>>Maybe some of you think that the situation is so sad that you have to
>>>>>find a way to laugh or it will drive you to despair -- I can
>>>>>understand that. But I just can't see it as appropriate for us -- who
>>>>>love boys.
>>>>>
>>>>>Are others having some of the same problems that I am? I would be
>>>>>interested in hearing about it if so.
>>>>>
>>>>>Love,
>>>>>Steve
>>>>>-- 4s00th@hushmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>My email is always available for those looking for and willing to supply support in the effort to remain boy-lovers and not become child-molesters de jure if not de facto.
>>>>
>>>>Dear Foursoothe,
>>>>
>>>>You'll excuse me if I state that I must strongly protest the tone of
>>>>your message. You vehemently object to the "news" characterising the
>>>>boys as ruined, yet at every turn in your essay you utilise the very
>>>>terminology and philosophy that perpetuates that very result, to wit:
>>>>
>>>>"sexual abuse"
>>>>"predators"
>>>>"victimised"
>>>>"evil bastards"
>>>>"selfish needs"
>>>>"anathema"
>>>>"rape"
>>>>
>>>>I believe that whatever one can say about heterosexual men, one can
>>>>equally claim about Boylovers (and I use the term in a much wider
>>>>sense than you). There are no lack of heterosexual men who might be
>>>>characterised as bad because they are bad people ... caring not
>>>>whether they hurt others. Equally, there are, I'm ashamed to say, no
>>>>lack of paedophiles about whom can be claimed the same. Yet as there
>>>>are an overwhelming majority of good men emotionally and physically
>>>>loving women that are good, the same can probably be said about
>>>>Boylovers.
>>>>
>>>>But we can't actually know for certain, can we? The culture of
>>>>perpetual fear has pushed these individuals into the dark, a culture
>>>>which you seem to wish to perpetuate. As far as being isolated ...
>>>>you imply you are because of your own negative sexual experience. I
>>>>can reassure you, based on my own experience, that there is no group
>>>>so isolated by hatred and fear as those who aspire to love boys.
>>>>
>>>>Should X surpress certain behaviours towards Y because society so
>>>>overwhelmingly rejects X and stigmitises Y? Is this reason enough at
>>>>any time? Think about it. How different and perhaps unjust our world
>>>>would ever more be.
>>>>
>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>HMS Victor Victorian, NP-g18
>>>>God Save the Queen.
>>>>God Bless the Prince of Wales.
>>>>God Preserve the Windsors.
>>>>Rule Britannia!
>>>
>>>And yet, you overlook the facts: boys who engage in sex with an adult
>>>under whatever circumstances are likely to be hurt -- whether they are
>>>hurt physically or emotionally. Even a boy-lover with the best of
>>>intentions can end up hurting a boy by moving their relationship from
>>>non-sexual to sexual. There is simply NO WAY to determine in advance
>>>how any particular boy will react. These are facts.
>>>
>>>Given these facts, how can I not characterize a man who is willing to
>>>take that chance with someone he claims to love as "selfish?" As
>>>choosing to satisfy his own "selfish needs" over protecting the one he
>>>loves? It doesn't matter whether a boy is actually hurt by the
>>>relationship or the sex or whether the boy is later traumatized by
>>>society's reaction to the relationship -- the harm is done. And I can
>>>even argue that most of the harm is done afterwards unless we're
>>>talking about out-and-out rape or even that gray area where there
>>>might be inferred coercion. As one of the boys I loved and who
>>>actually told me he wanted to make love with me once told me -- and
>>>this is a paraphrase -- "It doesn't matter how equal you try to make
>>>both partners. In the end, it's just you standing in front of this
>>>much bigger person." (FTR, he and I never met in person, and he used
>>>to be both amused and apologetic when he knew how uncomfortable he
>>>made me when he told me some of the things he'd like to do with me!)
>>>
>>>Why would you take the chance of harming someone you truly love?
>>>Choosing that option CANNOT be about what's in his best interest.
>>>
>>>Certain behaviors have to be suppressed when the result is harm -- and
>>>especially the kind of pain and harm that can be caused by our actions
>>>towards boys.
>>>
>>>love,
>>>Steve
>>>-- 4s00th@hushmail.com
>>>
>>>My email is always available for those looking for and willing to supply support in the effort to remain boy-lovers and not become child-molesters de jure if not de facto.
>>
>>Dear Steven,
>>
>>I certainly do not overlook that fact, as you've put it. There is
>>always the potential for harm, particularly in the context of a
>>society that so stigmatises sex. This is my point, you see. You have
>>used inflamatory language that perfectly reflects that society, and in
>>that sense, reinforces that stigma. Do you believe that all societies
>>react in such a punative and destructive way? I would tell you no.
>>The tone in which you've set your argument is distinctly Western.
>>
>>As for "selfish" ... Love is precisely that, if you think about it. I
>>can't think of a more personal and self-centered emotion. I
>>understand your motivation, but if one takes your complete argument
>>and tenor to heart, one must conclude you believe all those who do not
>>adhere to your measure do not truly love boys, and thus are evil
>>predator bastards.
>>
>>Which is precisely the position of society today.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>Victor
>>God Save the Queen.
>>God Bless the Prince of Wales.
>>God Preserve the Windsors.
>>Rule Britannia!
>
>Having thought more about the issue, let me first state that my
>original post referred specifically to predators -- pedophiles who
>molest boys for their own sexual gratification without caring what
>harm may befall their victims. In that sense, it is legitimately
>"sexual abuse" and "rape" by "evil bastards" who "victimize"
>boys/children for their own "selfish needs." These people are NOT
>boy-lovers.
>
>And I want to be clear that I understand that sometimes boy-lovers
>make bad decisions. Let's face it, we want to believe that our boys
>love us romantically and would welcome sexual advances despite the
>fact that most boys -- especially pre-pubertal boys -- are not
>interested in sex no matter how much they flirt with us. They may have
>romantic feelings for us, but they are not the same as the kind of
>romantic feelings that adults have. Just to be honest, it's hard for
>boys who haven't had an orgasm and cannot ejaculate to understand the
>ultimate goal that adults have for sex. They might enjoy a little
>fooling around -- but that's more a fact of being a bit naughty than
>it is about wanting to have sex. It's far too easy to believe what we
>want to believe. And we shouldn't underestimate how much boys like to
>flirt and how much the attention it gets them only reinforces such
>behaviors!
>
>Also, we cannot forget that there are plenty of boys who would be very
>willing to share their bodies to continue the relationship or just
>because they might know that we want it. On the one hand, there can be
>an implied coercion -- that if they don't, we might take our attention
>and affection and love away from them. On the other hand, there is the
>idea that they shouldn't be making love with us when it's not what
>they want and only done because they love us enough to want to please
>us. Frankly, I don't want to make love with anyone who does not
>actually want to make love with me -- and certainly not with anyone
>who thinks he owes me or is afraid that I will take my love away from
>him if he does not.
>
>And then there are cases where no actual sexual contact was intended,
>but simple affectionate gestures are misinterpreted -- either by the
>boy or by someone who then pushes the boy about it. That was a problem
>for me simply because I cannot help being affectionate with boys! I
>don't think it bothered any of my boys -- even the ones who understood
>that I was sexually and romantically attracted to them. Most of them
>returned my affection, though sometimes it took a little getting used
>to! And since most of the parents involved knew me since I had grown
>up in Scouting, they understood that I wasn't a danger to their boys.
>That's not to say that they understood my attraction to the boys.
>Incidentally, I think that, for some boys, knowing how I really felt
>about them and also knowing that I wouldn't pressure them or act on
>those feelings actually made them feel closer to me, and our
>relationship was actually more intimate emotionally as a result..
>
>The point is that I wouldn't classify boy-lovers who make these
>mistakes as "evil bastards." At the same time, that doesn't lessen the
>harm that they might be doing. At worst, I would prolly consider them
>to be misguided or having poor judgment. And while their intentions
>are not evil, they are motivated by "selfish needs."
>
>To be honest, for years I have wanted nothing more than to find a boy
>who loved me -- both as a friend and genuinely romantically. And part
>of the problem is that I fear I might be too tempted to believe what I
>wanted to believe, but an even bigger part of that problem is the pain
>of knowing that they don't feel the same way that I do. Nobody does! I
>mean, seriously the people who have been attracted to me and
>interested in me romantically are not people who _I_ have been
>attracted to! I have no doubt that part of my chosen isolation has
>some root in the negative experience that I had, but I have to admit
>that there were a lot of pleasant sexual experiences with peers as
>well. The primary reason for my self-imposed isolation is fear: fear
>that I might not show the best judgment and fear that I will only end
>up breaking my own heart YET again and again. And it's not uncommon in
>survivors to have that intense fear of abandonment or of having your
>feelings not returned.
>
>As for love being selfish in nature ... well, I can agree that some of
>the behaviors involved have a certain motivation in the way that it
>makes us feel. But I also feel that a hallmark of true love is that
>one is truly more concerned about the well-being of his loved-one than
>his own well-being; the willingness to put the needs of someone else
>above your own. As I said, I freely admit that part of the motivation
>is the way that it makes you, yourself, feel; so I wouldn't classify
>it as altruistic, but it may be as close to altruistic as we can
>actually get.
>
>To misquote Robert Heinlein, "there is no such thing as altruism since
>altruism is based on self-deception -- the root of all sin. If you
>find yourself feeling altruistic, look a little closer at your
>motives, and if you still want to do it [whatever that thing you feel
>altruistic about is], then wallow in it!" That's horribly paraphrased
>from Time Enough for Love.
>
>I do wish that others would join in this discussion. I would
>appreciate their thoughts and feelings.
>
>Love,
>Steve
>-- 4s00th@hushmail.com
>
>My email is always available for those looking for and willing to supply support in the effort to remain boy-lovers and not become child-molesters de jure if not de facto.
Dear 4Soothe,
I respond to your points thusly:
There is a class (if the term can be so applied) of Boylovers who are
so irresponsible as to seek sexual gratification without an iota of
concern over the short or long term harm it may have on a boy. In
this, we agree completely. There are bastards out there, no doubt.
Everyone makes good and bad decisions. No one is immune from having
selfish feelings. I certainly have ... who can claim they have not?
Although I have had several correspondants insist that prepubescent
boys can achieve orgasm, I remain deeply skeptical ... realising my
skepticism may be solely based on my own experience as a boy.
Nevertheless, I maintain that boys are both curious about sex and do
have sexual responses which they not only enjoy, but seek ... some
more boldly than others. There are those Boylovers who, in the middle
of the night, sleeping beside a young friend, might be awakened by the
unsolicited feeling of a small hand furtively slipping beneath the
waist band and gently exploring about ... or who may feel a solidly
nubby object pressing on him from behind. I would catagorise such
events as sexually motivated.
As with men and women, there are men with boys who ply their friend's
cooperation with praise and favours and gifts ... and either covertly
or openly coerce that cooperation with the possibility of withholding
those favours. Of that, I have no doubt. But to insist that the
inequality of size between the man and boy inherently creates an
atmosphere of coercion is, in my opinion, wrong. Does it occur? Of
course it does, as anyone familiar with patterns of domestic abuse
will tell you. At the same time, there are boys who have alot more
self confidence and ambition than the man they are with. Some will
even "turn the tables" on their adult partner, threatening either
covertly or openly by their behaviour to withhold their "favours" if
their adult friend fails to give them what they want.
For boys are intelligent and not stupid.
As for harmless gestures being mistakenly interpreted as being
sexually motivated, either by the man or the boy, I agree completely
with your point ... other than to add that I believe it is the man,
when caught in that circumstance, that pays the much higher price.
And, my dear friend ... as for your isolation and attending emotions,
I think my experiences and feelings mirror yours closely. You
describe what I think every Boylover experiences ... the isolation,
the longing ... the fear ... not so much the fear of doing or having
been done wrong and left heart broken, but the fear of being revealed
to one's family, friends and acquaintances as a Boylover and suffering
the resulting disasters.
Which brings me to your last point ... that of true love and altruism.
One does not wish to harm their little friend, but one does want to
share an intimacy. I have read the indictment in the most recent
scandal across The Pond. I wonder indeed how the boys involved in the
most scandalous acts described therein actually felt at the time of
the event. Perhaps, given the hysteria of such things, we will never
know.
Sincerely,
HMSVV
God Save the Queen.
God Bless the Prince of Wales.
God Preserve the Windsors.
Rule Britannia!
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