On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:35:20 -0500, 4s00th <4s00th@hushmail.com>
wrote:
>On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:12:51 -0700, HMS Victor Victorian
><victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:36:26 -0500, 4s00th <4s00th@hushmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:13:26 -0500, Chester Azziz <chet@galleria.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>I have to question your taste in this matter. Look, I'm not oblivious
>>>to the fact that there is an awful lot of sexual abuse perpetrated by
>>>predators out there -- but I really think we need to be sensitive to
>>>the boys and girls who are being victimized by these evil bastards. We
>>>should know better than most that it is certainly possible to control
>>>these desires and urges -- even if it causes us pain to know we have
>>>to hold back. But we are boy-lovers -- LOVERS! The idea of satisfying
>>>our own selfish needs by possibly harming those boys we love is
>>>anathema to us.
>>>
>>>And, just to be honest with you, the constant coverage of this story
>>>by ESPN hasn't been terribly good for my own mental health. I think
>>>it's partially about knowing my own struggles to remain a boy-lover
>>>and not become a predator, but, even worse, it's bringing up a lot of
>>>my own issues as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. I've had to
>>>really push away from my favorite channel over the past few days to
>>>gain a little perspective.
>>>
>>>I don't like that the news is characterizing these boys as "ruined,"
>>>as if they are permanently damaged goods who have little to no chance
>>>of happiness -- we all know boys who have become more than mere
>>>survivors. I won't say that I'm doing more than surviving, but I've
>>>still managed to do a lot of good things with my life despite the
>>>pain, despite the problems and despite my self-imposed isolation.
>>>Nonetheless, we shouldn't make light of the amount of pain and
>>>suffering that these victims of rape have had to deal with over the
>>>last few years. Some of them came forth and told -- and were not
>>>believed! Some of them came forth and told -- and the legal system
>>>totally failed them! And others suffered silently.
>>>
>>>Maybe some of you think that the situation is so sad that you have to
>>>find a way to laugh or it will drive you to despair -- I can
>>>understand that. But I just can't see it as appropriate for us -- who
>>>love boys.
>>>
>>>Are others having some of the same problems that I am? I would be
>>>interested in hearing about it if so.
>>>
>>>Love,
>>>Steve
>>>-- 4s00th@hushmail.com
>>>
>>>My email is always available for those looking for and willing to supply support in the effort to remain boy-lovers and not become child-molesters de jure if not de facto.
>>
>>Dear Foursoothe,
>>
>>You'll excuse me if I state that I must strongly protest the tone of
>>your message. You vehemently object to the "news" characterising the
>>boys as ruined, yet at every turn in your essay you utilise the very
>>terminology and philosophy that perpetuates that very result, to wit:
>>
>>"sexual abuse"
>>"predators"
>>"victimised"
>>"evil bastards"
>>"selfish needs"
>>"anathema"
>>"rape"
>>
>>I believe that whatever one can say about heterosexual men, one can
>>equally claim about Boylovers (and I use the term in a much wider
>>sense than you). There are no lack of heterosexual men who might be
>>characterised as bad because they are bad people ... caring not
>>whether they hurt others. Equally, there are, I'm ashamed to say, no
>>lack of paedophiles about whom can be claimed the same. Yet as there
>>are an overwhelming majority of good men emotionally and physically
>>loving women that are good, the same can probably be said about
>>Boylovers.
>>
>>But we can't actually know for certain, can we? The culture of
>>perpetual fear has pushed these individuals into the dark, a culture
>>which you seem to wish to perpetuate. As far as being isolated ...
>>you imply you are because of your own negative sexual experience. I
>>can reassure you, based on my own experience, that there is no group
>>so isolated by hatred and fear as those who aspire to love boys.
>>
>>Should X surpress certain behaviours towards Y because society so
>>overwhelmingly rejects X and stigmitises Y? Is this reason enough at
>>any time? Think about it. How different and perhaps unjust our world
>>would ever more be.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>HMS Victor Victorian, NP-g18
>>God Save the Queen.
>>God Bless the Prince of Wales.
>>God Preserve the Windsors.
>>Rule Britannia!
>
>And yet, you overlook the facts: boys who engage in sex with an adult
>under whatever circumstances are likely to be hurt -- whether they are
>hurt physically or emotionally. Even a boy-lover with the best of
>intentions can end up hurting a boy by moving their relationship from
>non-sexual to sexual. There is simply NO WAY to determine in advance
>how any particular boy will react. These are facts.
>
>Given these facts, how can I not characterize a man who is willing to
>take that chance with someone he claims to love as "selfish?" As
>choosing to satisfy his own "selfish needs" over protecting the one he
>loves? It doesn't matter whether a boy is actually hurt by the
>relationship or the sex or whether the boy is later traumatized by
>society's reaction to the relationship -- the harm is done. And I can
>even argue that most of the harm is done afterwards unless we're
>talking about out-and-out rape or even that gray area where there
>might be inferred coercion. As one of the boys I loved and who
>actually told me he wanted to make love with me once told me -- and
>this is a paraphrase -- "It doesn't matter how equal you try to make
>both partners. In the end, it's just you standing in front of this
>much bigger person." (FTR, he and I never met in person, and he used
>to be both amused and apologetic when he knew how uncomfortable he
>made me when he told me some of the things he'd like to do with me!)
>
>Why would you take the chance of harming someone you truly love?
>Choosing that option CANNOT be about what's in his best interest.
>
>Certain behaviors have to be suppressed when the result is harm -- and
>especially the kind of pain and harm that can be caused by our actions
>towards boys.
>
>love,
>Steve
>-- 4s00th@hushmail.com
>
>My email is always available for those looking for and willing to supply support in the effort to remain boy-lovers and not become child-molesters de jure if not de facto.
Dear Steven,
I certainly do not overlook that fact, as you've put it. There is
always the potential for harm, particularly in the context of a
society that so stigmatises sex. This is my point, you see. You have
used inflamatory language that perfectly reflects that society, and in
that sense, reinforces that stigma. Do you believe that all societies
react in such a punative and destructive way? I would tell you no.
The tone in which you've set your argument is distinctly Western.
As for "selfish" ... Love is precisely that, if you think about it. I
can't think of a more personal and self-centered emotion. I
understand your motivation, but if one takes your complete argument
and tenor to heart, one must conclude you believe all those who do not
adhere to your measure do not truly love boys, and thus are evil
predator bastards.
Which is precisely the position of society today.
Sincerely,
Victor
God Save the Queen.
God Bless the Prince of Wales.
God Preserve the Windsors.
Rule Britannia!
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