On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:20:34 -0400, NP-f31 wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:24:08 -0600, HMS Victor Victorian
><victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:44:55 -0400, NP-f31 wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:43:03 -0600, HMS Victor Victorian
>>><victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 24 Aug 2010 15:52:01 -0500, Morpheus <Morpheus@dreamland.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:16:06 -0700, Z NP-f6 wrote
>>>>>(in article <umq776tuv4sjb3q8b7cosfn2lp05usa2o6@4ax.com>):
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 10:30:47 -0400, NP-f31 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (snip)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I've learned is my kid IS paying attention, and not just when I
>>>>>>> tell him 'this is something you need to remember'. He is modelling
>>>>>>> himself after me. That is what Dads are for. That is what boylovers
>>>>>>> should aspire to be. For all the beauty of a boy and all the
>>>>>>> enchantment he can bring to your life, what is important is what YOU
>>>>>>> can mean for HIM. Even when you have less access to a boy, like with
>>>>>>> me and T-Bone or Mac, the time you spend with them talking and doing
>>>>>>> things has an accumulative effect. Even if you're just cutting up and
>>>>>>> having fun, they ARE watching and what you do for them has a lifelong
>>>>>>> effect. I pray that every boylover who is brave and lucky enough to
>>>>>>> take on a loved boy remembers that whether he tries purposefully or
>>>>>>> not, he IS having a permanent impact on the boy he loves. By loving
>>>>>>> your boy unselfishly, you guarantee that your legacy will be a
>>>>>>> positive one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Love,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PS-Sorry Z if that last paragraph came off a bit preachy. I know you
>>>>>>> get it, but you're not the only one who will read this. Mea culpa.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not at all preachy, Doc! Look around and everywhere people are fouling
>>>>>> up kids by sending them the wrong messages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given my circumstances and character I know that I will never be able
>>>>>> to bring up a kid but I try with all the kids I meet to remember that,
>>>>>> even with the most casual meetings, they are watching and learning!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's easier for part-time people like me than for committed people
>>>>>> like you which is why I respect what you do so much.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On a more mundane note, don't let that youngest boy of yours get
>>>>>> swollen-headed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Love from Z
>>>>>
>>>>>Absolutely true.
>>>>>
>>>>>The question is NEVER if a kid learns anything. They are doing nothing else
>>>>>all the time.
>>>>>
>>>>>The question is WHAT did they learn? WHAT did you teach them?
>>>>
>>>>Dearest Morpheus,
>>>>
>>>>I think you've made an astute observation and query. I have always
>>>>suspected, although also having acknowledged that my belief may
>>>>simply be a reflection of my own insecurities and perceived failings,
>>>>that the impact parents make on the enculturation of their children,
>>>>is highly over-estimated. A parent or parent-surrogate who might
>>>>believe himself to be successful would, of course, stringently
>>>>disagree, but I hold that a child's personality is fairly properly
>>>>forged by the age of two, and that those who make the greatest
>>>>immediate and long-lived impact on his enculturation are not his
>>>>parents, nor adults at all.
>>>>
>>>> It is his peers.
>>>
>>>Hey VV and Morpheus,
>>>
>>>While a kid's peers DO have a big influence on them, you must take
>>>into account the kind of kid you're dealing with. I have always taught
>>>my kids to be rugged individualists who make their own decisions about
>>>what is right and wrong and reject peer pressure. In my son's peer
>>>group I witnessed a dramatic change last year. He started school as
>>>the 'new kid' and as a result was glommed onto rather quickly by the
>>>boys and girls who would become his circle of friends. He knew the
>>>secret that the 'new kid' has an advantage because no one knows him.
>>>All he has to do is be himself and people will migrate to him. Over
>>>the course of the school year my son went from new kid to leader by
>>>proxy. He became the center of that group of kids. He accomplished it
>>>without trying by simply being himself. The same thing happened with
>>>my oldest son. In fact, my older son was the social conscience of his
>>>peer group.
>>>
>>>It is no different for T-Bone or any other of the boys I have loved
>>>over the years. They listen and then apply the lessons I try to teach.
>>>When they find success, they are even more apt to pay attention. Their
>>>Moms taught them the difference between right and wrong. I taught them
>>>about the courage to do what they know is right. One is as important
>>>as the other.
>>>
>>>It will be interesting to see how this group of friends develops as
>>>they enter high school in a couple of years and face teenage
>>>challenges. If my oldest son and Bone are any indication, my youngest
>>>will do well.
>>>
>>>>So, in general, what children have learned is not what we as parents
>>>>or adults think they've learned, and what we taught them not at all
>>>>the content that they gleened from us.
>>>
>>>If you think kids aren't paying attention, try saying a curse word in
>>>front of a three year old. They're watching Vic. They're especially
>>>watching when they don't have a role model of their own.
>>>
>>>>Oh, and by the way ... I must state here that I am rather tired of the
>>>>admonition of what messages we are sending to our youngsters. Nowadays
>>>>we seem to always be sending messages--the wrong ones usually. If
>>>>only half of the messages we were supposedly sending were actually
>>>>sent, we'd not be able to converse due to the cacaphony of
>>>>exhortations!
>>>
>>>???? Are you sending wrong messages? Cut that out!
>>>
>>>>And I'd also like people to cease and desist criticising the chubby
>>>>youngsters, and the skinny ones, and the ones who are overly shy or
>>>>overly energetic, and the kids who aren't making the grade.
>>>
>>>Amen! The true individual is the exception to the ruile these days.
>>>Genuine 'personalities' make the most remarkable people.
>>>
>>>>Oh, and stop, please, medicating them for these imagined deficiencies
>>>>as well.
>>>
>>>That's a whole different topic of conversation.
>>>
>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>HMS Victor Victorian, NP-g18
>>>>
>>>>God Save the Queen.
>>>>God Bless the Prince of Wales.
>>>>God Preserve the Windsors.
>>>>Rule Britannia!
>>>
>>>Love,
>>>
>>>Doc
>>>NP-f31
>>
>>
>>Dear Doc,
>>
>>Strange. I was once the new kid. I was certainly myself, shy and
>>withdrawn and suspicious always of the motives of others. I found no
>>one gravitating to my sphere ... I was quite alone, having only one or
>>two very close friends.
>
>Okay, but had someone explained to you that because you are the new
>kid there will generally be a natural interest in you? Knowing that, a
>boy can go into that challenging situation with a good degree of self
>confidence. Both T-Bone and my son know the value of a winning smile.
>A friendly smile and self confidence are more than half the battle.
>You acknowledged that you were shy, withdrawn and suspicious of
>others. Where was the motivation for others to be drawn to you? Your
>very approach to the new environment was self defeating. I wish I had
>known you then...
>
>>I do not discount what you say, but I suspect perhaps you, yourself,
>>have an inflated perception of your own influence.
>
>I see. When you meet T-Bone or my youngest son you will retract that
>statement. I do not intend to brag, that is not my intention. I am
>talking about the success my boys have had. I see every day the
>influence my son has on his peers. Sure, he is immersed in the culture
>of his peer group and his friends influence him heavily when it comes
>to such things such as music, clothing, etc. But I see more of his
>influence in them than vice versa. As far as Bone is concerned he will
>come right out and tell you where his influences come from. Bobber has
>met my son and corresponded with T-Bone, perhaps he will chime in.
>
>> In regards to some
>>things about culture and society, such as "rugged individualism" (!)
>>adults do teach children. But if you think about it, the great
>>majority of enculturation--the acquisition of cultural knowledge,
>>expectations and behaviours of one's own society, are passed on from
>>peer to peer throughout life. As for parents, the mother's role in
>>the adult contribution is greater than the father's, generally, with
>>little exception.
>
>I agree with you to a large extent, the mother has much more influence
>when a boy is younger. But from the time of about 11 on a boy begins
>to look to men as role models. How many boys want to grow up to be
>'just like their mother'? Damn few I would say, unless they have had
>no adult male influence. If a boy were a tree then the father and
>mother give him the trunk through genetics, and the roots through
>modeling and how he is raised. His friends and peers help him branch
>out and become unique and influence his dress and personality (the
>leaves). But it's the parents that determine what kind of a tree you
>become. Positive influences can cause a tree to grow tall and become
>beautiful. Negative influences can stunt a tree or twist it. I think
>that everyone that comes in frequent contact with a youngster can have
>an influence. But a tree without strong roots is bound to fall and a
>tree with a hollow trunk will not weather a storm.
>
>>You may make your contribution, and if you have had such great and
>>effective influence on your loved boys' view of the world and how to
>>deal with it, then the laurels to you, indeed, for you have beaten the
>>odds.
>
>I disagree with having 'beaten the odds'. I am talking about a system
>of boylove that works. The results are intended and expected and any
>boylover can do the same thing. There is nothing special about me.
>What is special is how one cares for and nurtures a boy. When you
>understand the influence you have, you can create a blueprint or plan
>for how to raise him into a man. These are techniques that successful
>Dads, sports coaches, educators and motivators use. Grant is probably
>in the process of proving this point as I write.
>
>Doc
>NP-f31
Dear Doc,
You imply that you would have been a help to me, had you only known me
then. Oh, but you did know me then! You were my dear Bradley. And
you don't recall?
V
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