On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:24:08 -0600, HMS Victor Victorian
<victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:44:55 -0400, NP-f31 wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:43:03 -0600, HMS Victor Victorian
>><victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 24 Aug 2010 15:52:01 -0500, Morpheus <Morpheus@dreamland.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:16:06 -0700, Z NP-f6 wrote
>>>>(in article <umq776tuv4sjb3q8b7cosfn2lp05usa2o6@4ax.com>):
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 10:30:47 -0400, NP-f31 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> (snip)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I've learned is my kid IS paying attention, and not just when I
>>>>>> tell him 'this is something you need to remember'. He is modelling
>>>>>> himself after me. That is what Dads are for. That is what boylovers
>>>>>> should aspire to be. For all the beauty of a boy and all the
>>>>>> enchantment he can bring to your life, what is important is what YOU
>>>>>> can mean for HIM. Even when you have less access to a boy, like with
>>>>>> me and T-Bone or Mac, the time you spend with them talking and doing
>>>>>> things has an accumulative effect. Even if you're just cutting up and
>>>>>> having fun, they ARE watching and what you do for them has a lifelong
>>>>>> effect. I pray that every boylover who is brave and lucky enough to
>>>>>> take on a loved boy remembers that whether he tries purposefully or
>>>>>> not, he IS having a permanent impact on the boy he loves. By loving
>>>>>> your boy unselfishly, you guarantee that your legacy will be a
>>>>>> positive one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Love,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doc
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PS-Sorry Z if that last paragraph came off a bit preachy. I know you
>>>>>> get it, but you're not the only one who will read this. Mea culpa.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not at all preachy, Doc! Look around and everywhere people are fouling
>>>>> up kids by sending them the wrong messages.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given my circumstances and character I know that I will never be able
>>>>> to bring up a kid but I try with all the kids I meet to remember that,
>>>>> even with the most casual meetings, they are watching and learning!
>>>>>
>>>>> It's easier for part-time people like me than for committed people
>>>>> like you which is why I respect what you do so much.
>>>>>
>>>>> On a more mundane note, don't let that youngest boy of yours get
>>>>> swollen-headed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Love from Z
>>>>
>>>>Absolutely true.
>>>>
>>>>The question is NEVER if a kid learns anything. They are doing nothing else
>>>>all the time.
>>>>
>>>>The question is WHAT did they learn? WHAT did you teach them?
>>>
>>>Dearest Morpheus,
>>>
>>>I think you've made an astute observation and query. I have always
>>>suspected, although also having acknowledged that my belief may
>>>simply be a reflection of my own insecurities and perceived failings,
>>>that the impact parents make on the enculturation of their children,
>>>is highly over-estimated. A parent or parent-surrogate who might
>>>believe himself to be successful would, of course, stringently
>>>disagree, but I hold that a child's personality is fairly properly
>>>forged by the age of two, and that those who make the greatest
>>>immediate and long-lived impact on his enculturation are not his
>>>parents, nor adults at all.
>>>
>>> It is his peers.
>>
>>Hey VV and Morpheus,
>>
>>While a kid's peers DO have a big influence on them, you must take
>>into account the kind of kid you're dealing with. I have always taught
>>my kids to be rugged individualists who make their own decisions about
>>what is right and wrong and reject peer pressure. In my son's peer
>>group I witnessed a dramatic change last year. He started school as
>>the 'new kid' and as a result was glommed onto rather quickly by the
>>boys and girls who would become his circle of friends. He knew the
>>secret that the 'new kid' has an advantage because no one knows him.
>>All he has to do is be himself and people will migrate to him. Over
>>the course of the school year my son went from new kid to leader by
>>proxy. He became the center of that group of kids. He accomplished it
>>without trying by simply being himself. The same thing happened with
>>my oldest son. In fact, my older son was the social conscience of his
>>peer group.
>>
>>It is no different for T-Bone or any other of the boys I have loved
>>over the years. They listen and then apply the lessons I try to teach.
>>When they find success, they are even more apt to pay attention. Their
>>Moms taught them the difference between right and wrong. I taught them
>>about the courage to do what they know is right. One is as important
>>as the other.
>>
>>It will be interesting to see how this group of friends develops as
>>they enter high school in a couple of years and face teenage
>>challenges. If my oldest son and Bone are any indication, my youngest
>>will do well.
>>
>>>So, in general, what children have learned is not what we as parents
>>>or adults think they've learned, and what we taught them not at all
>>>the content that they gleened from us.
>>
>>If you think kids aren't paying attention, try saying a curse word in
>>front of a three year old. They're watching Vic. They're especially
>>watching when they don't have a role model of their own.
>>
>>>Oh, and by the way ... I must state here that I am rather tired of the
>>>admonition of what messages we are sending to our youngsters. Nowadays
>>>we seem to always be sending messages--the wrong ones usually. If
>>>only half of the messages we were supposedly sending were actually
>>>sent, we'd not be able to converse due to the cacaphony of
>>>exhortations!
>>
>>???? Are you sending wrong messages? Cut that out!
>>
>>>And I'd also like people to cease and desist criticising the chubby
>>>youngsters, and the skinny ones, and the ones who are overly shy or
>>>overly energetic, and the kids who aren't making the grade.
>>
>>Amen! The true individual is the exception to the ruile these days.
>>Genuine 'personalities' make the most remarkable people.
>>
>>>Oh, and stop, please, medicating them for these imagined deficiencies
>>>as well.
>>
>>That's a whole different topic of conversation.
>>
>>>Sincerely,
>>>HMS Victor Victorian, NP-g18
>>>
>>>God Save the Queen.
>>>God Bless the Prince of Wales.
>>>God Preserve the Windsors.
>>>Rule Britannia!
>>
>>Love,
>>
>>Doc
>>NP-f31
>
>
>Dear Doc,
>
>Strange. I was once the new kid. I was certainly myself, shy and
>withdrawn and suspicious always of the motives of others. I found no
>one gravitating to my sphere ... I was quite alone, having only one or
>two very close friends.
Okay, but had someone explained to you that because you are the new
kid there will generally be a natural interest in you? Knowing that, a
boy can go into that challenging situation with a good degree of self
confidence. Both T-Bone and my son know the value of a winning smile.
A friendly smile and self confidence are more than half the battle.
You acknowledged that you were shy, withdrawn and suspicious of
others. Where was the motivation for others to be drawn to you? Your
very approach to the new environment was self defeating. I wish I had
known you then...
>I do not discount what you say, but I suspect perhaps you, yourself,
>have an inflated perception of your own influence.
I see. When you meet T-Bone or my youngest son you will retract that
statement. I do not intend to brag, that is not my intention. I am
talking about the success my boys have had. I see every day the
influence my son has on his peers. Sure, he is immersed in the culture
of his peer group and his friends influence him heavily when it comes
to such things such as music, clothing, etc. But I see more of his
influence in them than vice versa. As far as Bone is concerned he will
come right out and tell you where his influences come from. Bobber has
met my son and corresponded with T-Bone, perhaps he will chime in.
> In regards to some
>things about culture and society, such as "rugged individualism" (!)
>adults do teach children. But if you think about it, the great
>majority of enculturation--the acquisition of cultural knowledge,
>expectations and behaviours of one's own society, are passed on from
>peer to peer throughout life. As for parents, the mother's role in
>the adult contribution is greater than the father's, generally, with
>little exception.
I agree with you to a large extent, the mother has much more influence
when a boy is younger. But from the time of about 11 on a boy begins
to look to men as role models. How many boys want to grow up to be
'just like their mother'? Damn few I would say, unless they have had
no adult male influence. If a boy were a tree then the father and
mother give him the trunk through genetics, and the roots through
modeling and how he is raised. His friends and peers help him branch
out and become unique and influence his dress and personality (the
leaves). But it's the parents that determine what kind of a tree you
become. Positive influences can cause a tree to grow tall and become
beautiful. Negative influences can stunt a tree or twist it. I think
that everyone that comes in frequent contact with a youngster can have
an influence. But a tree without strong roots is bound to fall and a
tree with a hollow trunk will not weather a storm.
>You may make your contribution, and if you have had such great and
>effective influence on your loved boys' view of the world and how to
>deal with it, then the laurels to you, indeed, for you have beaten the
>odds.
I disagree with having 'beaten the odds'. I am talking about a system
of boylove that works. The results are intended and expected and any
boylover can do the same thing. There is nothing special about me.
What is special is how one cares for and nurtures a boy. When you
understand the influence you have, you can create a blueprint or plan
for how to raise him into a man. These are techniques that successful
Dads, sports coaches, educators and motivators use. Grant is probably
in the process of proving this point as I write.
Doc
NP-f31
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