In article <njeq66l9pl22omeajmcangvokr2te3dfts@4ax.com>, HMS Victor
Victorian <victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
> On 18 Aug 2010 19:39:02 -0500, " +Grant. " <+Grant@grant.grant> wrote:
>
> >In article <6nnn669lt7kmn5hg0kalsffll922434mpn@4ax.com>, HMS Victor
> >Victorian <victorvictorian@hushunomail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 17 Aug 2010 22:43:01 -0500, " +Grant. " <+Grant@grant.grant> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <170820100148530373%Mover@Watch-Me.com>, Mover
> >> ><Mover@Watch-Me.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In article <Grant-me-that-1608101@Grant.Grant>, +Grant.
> >> >> <+Grant@grant.grant> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > The Adventures of Stevie #29
> >> >> >
> >> >> > These stories were told to me by friends and other people. Some of
> >> >> > them
> >> >> > are true. Some of them are only partly true. Some of them should have
> >> >> > been true. LOL
> >> >> >
> >> >> > My first post about Stevie ("Call me Stephen!") was when he was 12 and
> >> >> > in summer camp and was told by another camper. This was from a time
> >> >> > before computers would fit on a desk and when people communicated with
> >> >> > friends in other countries by actual letters sent through the postal
> >> >> > service. When children did this those friends were called "penpals".
> >> >> > Carlos is Stevie's penpal in Argentina and knows English. This is a
> >> >> > fictional contrivance to enable Stevie to tell us his stories because
> >> >> > he isn't here in person. I think.
> >> >> > All characters are fictitious, even if some of them might have names
> >> >> > that belong to some actual people, or act like people we know.
> >> >> > Stevie's school is for gifted children who don't fit in regular
> >> >> > schools.
> >> >> > The stories may not be posted in chronological order.
> >> >> > Stevie is 11 in this story, and it happens at the start of year 2 of
> >> >> > special school.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The Adventures of Stevie #29 "Start of Year 2 at Special School"
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Dear Carlos,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > School started. That's why I went to it. Ha ha. There are some
> >> >> > changes. Kit is teaching here part time. There are two new students.
> >> >> > One of them is CHAD!!! I didn't know he was going to be there. Neither
> >> >> > did he. I was there first. When he came in I didn't turn around to
> >> >> > look
> >> >> > because I heard his walk, so I knew it was him. I was very surprised,
> >> >> > but didn't want to be the first to scream this time. What I did at
> >> >> > camp
> >> >> > taught me that. He saw me and screamed my name and ran over to smother
> >> >> > me in hugs. I had a big smile while I was trying to breathe. When he
> >> >> > finally let go I stood up and said, "Hello, nice to meet you." He
> >> >> > looked confused. I laughed at his look and then he laughed too.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The other new student I don't know if she should be called that. She
> >> >> > is 16 or 17, and her name is Victoria. I can ask her more about
> >> >> > herself
> >> >> > but it won't work. She doesn't talk. She doesn't move much, either.
> >> >> > When she does it's very slow. Even her eyes blink slow, like maybe
> >> >> > once
> >> >> > every two minutes, and they don't look at anything. I don't know if
> >> >> > she
> >> >> > hears anything. She acts like she doesn't. If you want her to do
> >> >> > something, you have to touch her and move her to do it like a puppet
> >> >> > with no strings. People have to feed her like a baby, or she won't
> >> >> > eat.
> >> >> > She only does one thing by herself, if she has help, and that is with
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > pen and paper. You put paper in front of her, and a pen in her hand,
> >> >> > and she writes or draws. What happens with that is amazing! I think
> >> >> > that's why she is here. She must be real smart somewhere inside her,
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > write and draw what she does.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Victoria writes stories. Beautiful fairy stories, about castles and
> >> >> > princesses, and things like that. She draws them too, the best I ever
> >> >> > saw with a pen. Her writing looks beautiful too, with perfectly
> >> >> > straight lines. I don't know how she can do all that without ever
> >> >> > looking at the paper. Sometimes she draws real places she has never
> >> >> > been to or seen before, and so real it's like she is a camera.
> >> >> > Sometimes she draws people she never saw before, and before they come
> >> >> > to our school. I know this very well, because she just finished
> >> >> > drawing
> >> >> > ME when I went into the room she was in and saw her the first time.
> >> >> > That is weird!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Victoria is weird in a different way too. Sometimes she sparkles. I
> >> >> > asked the other kids if they saw anything strange about her, and they
> >> >> > said they didn't. It can't be just me who is weird because the other
> >> >> > kids don't sparkle. One more thing about that. She doesn't sparkle in
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > mirror. She looks regular then. Something else happened which is more
> >> >> > weird when I touched her hand. It was like it bit me. Like some kind
> >> >> > if
> >> >> > static electric spark, but not exactly, because it made me tingle all
> >> >> > over for a second. After that happened I saw more sparkles around her
> >> >> > head, and she moved a little by herself. I don't know what that means,
> >> >> > but I'm going to try to find out. I like her drawing of Chad.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I don't know what I want to do about Chad, but I have to do
> >> >> > something. I have been put in charge of getting him used to our
> >> >> > school.
> >> >> > I'm very glad he is so smart and special he can be here, but I don't
> >> >> > know how his feelings for me will work when we see each other every
> >> >> > day, in front of very smart people we can't hide anything from. There
> >> >> > are 2 more things about him I have to think about. Sensei made me
> >> >> > Chad's fighting teacher. He said I had to teach somebody to learn more
> >> >> > about fighting, and Chad and I were the same size so that made it
> >> >> > easier for us to practice together. I never taught anybody something
> >> >> > serious like fighting. I don't know if I can do it well and not hurt
> >> >> > him. I really really really want to do a good job for him, but I don't
> >> >> > know if I can.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The other thing which changed when Chad came to our school which
> >> >> > effects me, is I am not the youngest smallest and cutest kid in the
> >> >> > school anymore. That could be good and bad for me. He will get more
> >> >> > attention and hugs, and I will get more time for myself and studies. I
> >> >> > mean I would, if I didn't have to help Chad. You see what I mean? I'm
> >> >> > still a little confused and worried about the change this year, but
> >> >> > when I look at Chad, all I think about is how nice he is and how can I
> >> >> > help him. I think that might be how some of the other kids thought
> >> >> > about me. It's strange to be the one who thinks that now about
> >> >> > somebody
> >> >> > else. I don't know if I like it.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Except for all that, everything is normal, if anything is really
> >> >> > normal here. That's it! "Normal" is for other people. I get to have
> >> >> > "interesting".
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Your friend,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Stephen
> >> >>
> >> >> This one has a lot in it I like. One thing in particular, is his true
> >> >> confessions, just like a child who isn't holding anything back.
> >> >> Another, is how well you're describing his advancing maturity, and what
> >> >> is causing it. Well done. There are a lot of subtle lessons here.
> >> >>
> >> >> I look forward to seeing where you are going with Victoria and Chad. I
> >> >> suspect when you name a character, you're never really done with him,
> >> >> or her.
> >> >>
> >> >> Mover, in appreciation
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Thank you.
> >> >
> >> >I've written up to 100, and so far, this is one of my favorites. I
> >> >wanted to show how a child might see the relationships he's involved
> >> >with, and wonder how it looks from a different perspective, and see how
> >> >a sense of responsibility could develop.
> >> >
> >> >Victoria is a puzzle. Stevie is challenged by puzzles. Something is
> >> >going to change with this one, and so will Stevie.
> >> >
> >> >I'm following Doc's suggestion for making Chad a younger love interest.
> >> >Give it time. They are still very young. I'm using the opportunity Chad
> >> >gives me, to give some responsibility to Stevie, to help him mature. It
> >> >works.
> >> >
> >> >The next story involves a "Rule" VV just misapplied in another group.
> >> >This time it's how Stevie sees it, which is different from how his
> >> >mother sees it, who is NOT like VV. I just wanted to make that clear.
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear Grant,
> >>
> >> Your stories and related postings are always of interest to me, but
> >> your comment here not only serves to criticise me, but to confuse me
> >> as well!
> >>
> >> How is it that you state I've misapplied a "Rule?"
> >
> >Direct cause and effect wasn't established, when you attributed the
> >killing of a Roman family to the Golden Rule, because he had killed
> >other families.
> >The reverse is even less true. Had those families he killed, also
> >killed other families, and so their murders were supported by the
> >Golden Rule of "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you"?
> >Probably not.
> >
> >> With All Deserved Respect,
> >> V
> >>
> >> God Save the Queen.
> >> God Bless the Prince of Wales.
> >> God Preserve the Windsors.
> >> Rule Britannia!
> >
> >I think what you could have meant was "Fate often punishes evil", which
> >is a common biased observation, because we notice and remember those
> >instances more. Or "What goes around, comes around". Neither one of
> >those is the Golden Rule.
> >
> >This kind of inaccuracy often happens when somebody is pushing an
> >agenda, rather than engaging in academic discussions. All of us fall
> >prey to this sometimes, and history is full of it.
> >
> >People like me, who study history, have to take these things into
> >consideration when trying to understand what was reported, which
> >includes how and why.
> >
> >For example, from that same thread, why was it reported that Tiberius
> >raped girls and snapped the necks of boys for pleasure? And why was it
> >assumed to be true at the time, and so became part of "History"? The
> >rumors were circulated by his political enemies in Rome as a common
> >political ploy, and weren't opposed by Tiberius himself, because he
> >wasn't there, and wasn't told about them. Things like that, were why he
> >left the city for his "vacation" home. He hated court intrigue, and
> >wanted to enjoy his passion in peace, which was architecture. He built
> >an awful lot of stuff.
> >He delegated the rule of the Roman Empire to his generals. Which is so
> >often the case when the military isn't supervised by civilian rule,
> >brutality ensued. Tiberius might not have known about the horrible
> >things which were done in his name. Or cared.
>
>
> Dear Grant,
>
> I meant precisely what I said.
>
> As for my historical resume, I do not pretend to be a student of
> history, as do you. Writing a history of ancient times is fraught
> with troubles, as Gibbons would have told you. The surviving accounts
> are simply too few and often unsupported by other volumes. What you
> say may be true, but I doubt it. People do not change, and the abuses
> that come from wielding absolute power do not change, as any quick
> review of verifiable history will reveal. Yet, if you wish to
> challenge my interpretation, please present the facts to support your
> position as objectively substantiated.
>
> Based on your response to the modest essay I wrote at The Galleries, I
> would say you have the agenda, sir ... not I.
>
> The Golden Rule ... and you may again condemn me as a rube and a
> Pollyanna, if you must ... is not a rule at all, but a maxim. It is
> no less than an egocentric expression of the human social contract,
> the foundation of social cooperation and interdependence which
> circumglobally defines us as human. Is this to say that "Do Unto
> Other as You Would Have Them Do Unto You" can be rendered as "If
> You're Nice, Then People Must Be Nice To You?" Of course not. There
> is Evil in the world, in our hearts and minds, oft not suppressed, and
> Evil thereby done. You may ask the Children of Beslan, or millions of
> other lost souls who were felled for some trivial purpose.
>
> The corollary of the Golden Rule is just as you said it ... if you do
> evil, chances are evil will befall you. What goes around, comes
> around.
>
> In Respect,
>
> V
>
> God Save the Queen.
> God Bless the Prince of Wales.
> God Preserve the Windsors.
> Rule Britannia!
I think we are seeing more semantic disagreements.
I think Grant sees things from a perspective that treats words as they
mean literally. While you prefer to see them in a more personal and
flexible way.
All this time he has been treating the "Rule" as it's label specifies:
A rule, in the full use of the word, which is akin to a law, and
applied exactly. I think he has been trying to convince you it doesn't
work as an actual rule, the way it's stated. You have resisted that.
Now you have changed the rules about the "Rule" debate, redefining it
by stating that "it is not a rule at all, but a maxim". This is indeed
a more accurate way to describe it, although not totally, and that
seems to have been his goal all along, to have you see it that way.
If this had been a competition, I would have declared Grant the winner.
You have agreed with his position, more than he has agreed with yours.
He has maintained it's a philosophical concept, and not a rule, and you
have now shown you agree with that. But it isn't really a competition.
It is interesting, however, that you don't seem to be aware of the
outcome.
For myself, I would say this. Beware bold statements. They often take
too much for granted. He who lives by the maxim...
I disagree with your statement that people do not change. They can.
Some do. Redemption and expiation is a reality, but sadly, not for all.
Everything changes, in fine, even though we may often see only the
gross. Ask any adult how much he has changed from when he was a child.
Birth and death are the greatest changes of all.
Power does often corrupt, but not universally, and not always totally.
I wonder how often reported historical depravity was exaggerated, and
how much true horrible depravity has remained secret, where it's
practitioners have always wanted it. I would estimate, in equal
amounts. I doubt we will ever know.
Eccentricities, elevated and enhanced by the power of wealth to make
indulging in them more noticeable, are sometimes inaccurately viewed as
corruption. I wonder what corruption we would be accused of, if we had
the power to do anything we wished, and the notoriety to make it
noticeable.
How often, and to what degree, is our perception of the corruption of
the powerful, influenced by our jealousy and resentment of them? Grant
made a valid point. How much of what we know of history, is colored by
this? The debate over whether President Obama is a citizen of the US,
illustrates this. How will this look in two thousand years? That would
depend on the popular version of history at that time, and who wrote
it, and their personal agenda.
I would like to see Grant write some support for the Golden Rule in his
stories, perhaps as the Yin-Yang principle of balance, which I think it
really strives to express.
Mover, waxing historical, and unwaxing rules
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