news:H3Cdc.6101$BR1.4400@okepread03...
> "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
> news:c5606i$edj$0@pita.alt.net...
> >
> > news:X7odc.5154$BR1.26@okepread03...
> > > "Dana Tweedy" <tweedyd@cvn.net> wrote in message
> > > news:rGndc.1371$l75.56@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Anastasia" <AnastasiaK83@xocbackwards.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:JDkdc.5110$BR1.531@okepread03...
> > > > snipping
> > > >
> > > > > > No wonder you are 'high maintenance'. I imagine a minx like you
> > would
> > > > take
> > > > > a
> > > > > > toll out of anybody.
> > > > >
> > > > > We may now add 'minx' to the list.
> > > > > 'High maintenance' was a bit light-hearted, even if only
> > half-way,
> > > > > since I also must deal with a chronic medical condition. But that
> is
> > > > > neither here nor there. I fully expected you to pounce on the
> > > reference.
> > > > I
> > > > > confess no joy that you did, though, at this point.
> > > >
> > > > Again, just another data point that shows that "UD" doesn't treat a
> > woman
> > > as
> > > > a human being. It's either "minx", or "bitch" or some patronizing
> term
> > of
> > > > endearment. The way I see it, he can't imgagine that a 'mere
woman'
> > > would
> > > > be able to hold her own against him, much less give him the ass
> kicking
> > > that
> > > > Anastasia has been administering. In order to save face, he has to
> > > imagine
> > > > that it's David in disguise.
> > >
> > > Yes, I see that. But if he has problems being debated by a
woman,
> he
> > > must live with that. No one will defer to him.
> > > Mr Sienkiewicz and I were on chat tonight and he mentioned that
> Davey
> > > is from England but works in Poland. It seems to me that England is
far
> > > more liberal about those things than Poland and we speculated why such
a
> > > businessman of 'stature' would leave England for the relative,
perceived
> > > backward Poland. We wondered if he did not perceive that society in
> > Poland
> > > is more conservative and tend to be more oppresive to women.
Regardless
> > of
> > > such speculation, he clearly has issues with women.
> > >
> > > Anastasia
> >
> > I don't have issues with women, I have issues with jumped up little
brats.
>
> One moment, please. I am recording your latest 'veteran mind-fork'
> name-calling episode.
>
> > I don't see Poland, for your information, as having any oppresion of
> women.
>
> So would you assert that Poland is not a more conservative atmosphere
> than Great Britain and more conducive to women's rights and the progress
of
> women who have the same opportunities as the men?
>
> > If Grotty thinks so, then he should prove it. Evidently he does not know
> the
> > country as well as he cares to make out.
>
> I cannot speak to that other than to suggest that he does not live
> there and has not since a young age--he visits frequently. Other than
that,
> you must ask him when he returns. However, in speaking for me, I would
> agree with the assessment with a qualification that I have not lived
there.
>
> > Just because he doesn't see this
> > place as a worthy place to live
>
> Now to this I can speak and remind the readers that this is simply
your
> rhetoric. 'Grotty,' as you call him (and I have since discovered that
this
> is just name-calling on your part), while still a child, had to flee from
> Poland to escape the nazi aggression. He grew up in another country.
Since
> Poland was under communist rule for most of those years, would you really
> expect him to return?
> Do not fret, little demon. I expect you will avoid that question as
> you have so many others.
>
> > doesn't mean that I need to share that
> > opinion.
>
> I do not believe that anyone expects to share your opinions and no
one
> expects you to share the opinions of others, even if those opinions are
only
> imagined by you!
>
> > Many Polish people themselves are not aware of the quality of their
> > homeland, and go to places like Britain where they see a greener grass
on
> > the other side of the fence.
> >
> > I know England and I know Poland, and England does have the greener
grass,
> > but unfortunately there is less of it to go around, and much of it is
> > astroturf. Poland has much left to do, and I prefer for your information
> to
> > be part of a place where I can make a difference rather than sit around
in
> a
> > country where everything is done already.
>
> As an extreme example, if I were to go to some primitive African
> nations with my knowledge, education and a few of our technological
> 'gadgets,' I would likely be looked upon as something much more than I am.
> Your rash statements tell me that Mr Sienkiewicz might be right. 'He
> probably couldn't hack it in the business world in Great Britain.' I
> suspect that 'make a difference' means you could actually get a job
further
> up the business hierarchy in the environment in Poland than you could in a
> more long-standing capitalist world in the west.
>
> > People like yourself and Grotty, economic migrants to richer nations who
> > want to be parasites and bloodsuck off of the labours of people who have
> > done all the real work before you get there will NEVER understand my
> > mentality, which is the opposite.
>
> Little demon, there are many aspects to your mentality, and I will
not
> pretend to understand them all; but I understand enough.
> I should like to correct to misperceptions that you wish to impress
> upon the readers in your zeal to elevate your own 'stature' through the
> means of putting others down. First is that I do not live in the United
> States. I am here as a student for now because my mother, who is employed
> based out of Moscow, is currently assigned here. I am going to school
here
> and, for the moment, and I am visiting my father, who is American and
lives
> in San Diego, after some medical treatment. My parents get along quite
> well, thank you for asking, but neither my mother nor I are American
> immigrants or citizens. We are citizens of Russia and will remains so.
As
> a second correction, Mr Sienkiewicz was not an 'economic migrant,' but a
> political one. You have had this explained to you enough times that
> representing it as you do now is nothing short of a lie.
> I am curious about something little demon. Is it your impression
that
> people who move out of Poland to capitalist countries are people who do no
> labour themselves and 'bloodsuck' from the labours of those who do the
'real
> work?' What is the basis for this claim?
> I also find it curious that so many of your previous messages speak
of
> your successes, your 'stature,' your wealth and your power, and yet this
> message seems to say much the opposite. That you possess none of these
> things and that you do the 'real work.'
>
> > I go to Russia and Poland to improve
> > matters there,
>
> I go to Russia and Poland to make money and a living, little demon.
Do
> not presume to lie to us.
>
> > things that the people whose homeland it is should be doing
> > for themsleves and of course most do, and we work together, but people
> like
> > you and Grotty just leave for the richer countries,
>
> See above for the response to this.
>
> > and people like me,
> > namely PIONEERS have to go in the other direction to balance the
equation.
>
> I also enjoy the romantic image of the pioneer, but you are hardly
> that.
>
> > Polish women have a culture and a bearing that UK women seem to lack,
>
> Yes, they tend to be more submissive to the men. That is true in
> Russia, also, particularly when removed from the urban centers.
>
> > that
> > much is true, but to state that they are any less assertive than UK
women
> > would be totally inaccurate.
>
> No one claimed that they were 'less assertive.' As with any group,
> there are variations on the norm, but the norm is that Poland and Russia
are
> still largely patriarchial societies where the men tend to rule and the
> women are ruled. Women are oppressed to some degree in all of the
developed
> nations and there are disparities in pay and the ability to ascend the
> corporate ladder, but those things are particularly true in the former
> Soviet Union and eastern bloc nations. In Russia, women are discriminated
> against in employment and discharged in disproportionate numbers. The
> existence of anti-discrimination laws is a joke--these laws are most often
> not enforced. The government pays lip service but when even the Labor
> Minister can ask why should women be employed when there are *men* out of
> work, it is not hard to see that the discrimination is all but
> government-sanctioned. Women are expected and encouraged or even
pressured
> to remain in vocations considered 'traditionally female.' Existing
> prohibitions against discrimination are not enforced, even as many date
from
> the Soviet period. Violent crimes against women are not investigated with
> the same zeal as crimes against men. There was a mention of the 'mail
order
> bride' industry in Russia and the former Soviet countries and it is true
> that this is a growing industry. One might consider why so many Russian
> women (most of whom as advertised on web sites are attractive,
intelligent,
> often bi or multi-lingual, and well-educated) want to leave. One might
> think that these workers--who do the 'real work' as you put it and should
be
> PIONEERS, as well, would want to stay so that they can 'make a difference'
> every bit as much as you moral crusaders wish to do.
> If the situation is any better in Poland, I am unaware of it. I have
> many Polish friends and they are not impressed with the treatement and
> opportunities for women there any more than in other eastern bloc nations.
> Why, for example is there only one approved university program in Women's
> Studies? Why is unemployment higher for women than for men, even in the
> same skilled vocations? There are many questions I would ask of you
> regarding these issues, little demon, but I have no hope that you would
> answer them.
> Do not presume to lecture me on the status of women in these areas.
I
> *am* a women, and I have seen it 'up close and personal,' as they say,
while
> for you, it is a discussion with other presumed 'intelligentsia' at
cocktail
> parties.
>
> > I also have very good working relationships with the female colleagues
in
> my
> > office, and have developed careers of as many females as males and on
> > precisely the same principles.
>
> For this, we have only your word, which we have good cause to doubt.
> It has been pointed out before that you do not allow an opportunity to
boast
> pass you by. Why should we believe that this is not a convenient tale and
a
> boast?
>
> > I am arguing as tough with you as I would
> > with a man on the same basis,
>
> No, you are 'arguing as tough' because you are actually a
small-minded
> misogynist who knows that my presence so far from you means little
> repurcussions will be suffered by you.
>
> > but you seem to think I'm anti-woman because I
> > am not giving you any leeway.
>
> No, you are anti-woman for the reasons stated. I do not believe that
I
> otherwise need any 'leeway' from you.
>
> > You people of american culture seem to think
> > giving people a kind of golf handicap for being female or for being
black
> or
> > whatever is the way to treat them as equals.
>
> Your tendency to categorize such a large group and stereotype them so
> quickly is indicative of your tendencies in this regard. I do not agree
> with these things, of course, and I am not of 'american culture,' even if
it
> should be 'American culture,' to enforce your own presumed standards.
>
> > Well I never understood that, I
> > don't have affirmative actions in my Usenet posting, so I will be as
tough
> > on you as I would be with a man posting, and I suggest you live with it,
> and
> > don't bleat on about some pretended inequality.
>
> You are such a pathetic misogynist, little demon, and an accomplished
> liar to presume to direct the subject in this way. No one is complaining
> about 'inequality.' What was speculated was that you are a misogynist and
> when you could not 'hack it' in a western country, you retreated to a more
> 'traditional' and conservative society where you could presume to be a
> bigger person than your talents, abilities, education and personality
would
> allow. You have affirmed that with this reply.
>
> Anastasia
>
I could hack it well enough there. It is harder to make it in East Europe
than in the UK, but I got a degree and a profession. I also had for a while
a senior corporate role in London and Hamburg, but I don't like the
lifestyle as well as I liked the East European lifestyle. I was Finance
Director in one of the Russian TV channels for 15 months also, but I
preferred to go back to Poland for the simple reason that I love Poland.
Nevertheless, I have to say that my wife is a Russian speaker, from Brest,
and we speak Russian at home.
You say you have cause to doubt my words, but I think if you were fair you
would see that I have as frank and open a record of my failures as well as
successes on here as anybody can have, and that I am franker than most
people by a long way.
Uncle Davey
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