Usenet history, in the making, or just another dull day?
FTR, I am the one doing the 2:1 bit.
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>Path: newscene.com!newscene!newscene!novia!novia!sequencer.newscene.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.fan.oldfart
>Subject: Re: Kids at work
>Date: 6 Jan 2004 22:55:27 -0600
>Organization: Ignorance Unlimited, Ltd.
>Lines: 310
>Message-ID: <jkvmvvof1s0pdg4piu9k087trno31uar78@4ax.com>
>References: <AUB.22302080.22320104@AubsBunker.mn> <8bdmvvcfk11kcinqkr34hlla01i26cmiu5@4ax.com> <AUB.22334984.22335272@AubsBunker.mn> <kgkmvvc5nimvubtce2rvsjo0pk2vba0vk3@4ax.com> <f9smvvgsq6832hihpi00mqeji9363moruj@4ax.com>
>Reply-To: Why Bother?
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>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>You think that is something reserved for places like Cambodia?
>>>>>>Official stats state that 320,000 kids between age 6 and 13 work all
>>>>>>year in Italy, plus 120,000 more as seasonal help.
>>>>>>Greece: 10,000 kids below age 13 work all year in agriculture.
>>>>>>Germany: 500, 000 kids between 13 and 15 are into "little jobs"
>>>>>>regularily.
>>>>>>Tops go to Britain, that super dynamic experimentation playground for
>>>>>>neo-cons. 3 million kids work regularily there all year round.
>>>>>>Supermarkets, newsstalls, you name it.
>>>>>>So we get this straight, we're not talking kids working for a little
>>>>>>bit of money for themselves, we're talking kids who have to support
>>>>>>their families.
>>>>>>As always, long live Capitalism and that joke called democracy, which
>>>>>>suits the sharks just as long as it promises profit. Currently,
>>>>>>democracy looks like yesteryear's fashion at the sales.
>>>>>
>>>>>I see. OK, so a bunch of short people have to work to survive, so
>>>>>what?
>>>>>Would that change any with that stupid "bartering" system you love so
>>>>>much?
>>>>>No, and why not? Because kids have always worked, no matter what the
>>>>>system.
>>>>>
>>>>>What good are they, if not to work?
>>>>
>>>>Maybe, just maybe, we should stop here.
>>>>For the following reasons:
>>>>1. You never lost a word on why bartering is stupid.
>>>>2. I never expressed my love for bartering systems. I just mentioned
>>>>them as *interesting*.
>>>>3. Your comments about kids working are outright stupid.
>>>>
>>>>You basically got two drive lanes here.
>>>>You either shut up because you got nothing you want to contribute.
>>>>Or you do take some stuff seriously. I took some time to answer a
>>>>previous post from your end. My answer might or might not have been
>>>>intelligent and/or comprehensible, but you should note that I took you
>>>>question seriously. The way you dealt with my answer indicates any
>>>>futire questions from your end should be ignored right from the start.
>>>>Labour lost.
>>>
>>>I see. So I asked you, all nice and polite like, to come up with a
>>>pragmatic alternative to capitalism, and you wander off into some crap
>>>about how marvy the barter system is, and how you never mentioned soup
>>>kitchens, but I am the one that is treading on thin ice?
>>>
>>>And, to top it off, you call my child working comments "outright
>>>stupid", and to add injury to insult, you tell me that I might have to
>>>shut up?
>>>
>>>You been drinking again, I can tell.
>>>
>>>OK, short and fucking sweet:
>>>Despite all the inequities, flaws, and un fairness of the capitalist
>>>model, the fucking thing works!
>>>
>>>It isn't perfect, that's by default, but, until someone comes up with
>>>a workable alternative, it's going to be the engine that drives this
>>>world.
>>>Prove me wrong.
>>>
>>>And about kids working:
>>>Kids have always worked, and, in fact, that's what they were bred for.
>>>The farmer needed cheap labour, and by poking his fat ugly sow of a
>>>wife, he got the cheap labour, IF they lived.
>>>
>>>When the industrial revolution started, in the "advanced" countries,
>>>the kiddies went to work in the home factories, at first, and later
>>>moved into the mechanized, factories.
>>>Did they suffer?
>>>You bet your ass they did.
>>>
>>>Was their suffering avoidable?
>>>No.
>>>Not unless their families starved.
>>>
>>>Has much changed about child labour?
>>>Yes, in the so called civilized societies, it has.
>>>However, as about 75% of the world is still in the "dark ages", the
>>>laws to protect kids are either non-existent, or not enforced.
>>>And, point of fact, w/o the labour of their kids, even today, on
>>>01/06/2004, many families would not eat today, w/o their children
>>>working.
>>>
>>>Should these countries/parents/factory owners be held accountable?
>>>I dunno.
>>>Just how does one explain the difference between the morals,
>>>abilities, and attitudes, of the relatively new productive "developed"
>>>areas, versus the depressed areas, that have been around for literally
>>>thousands of years?
>>>
>>>I'm not certain, but I suspect that some of this "difference" can be
>>>explained by the fact that there are some countries, and specifically,
>>>some individuals, THAT REFUSE TO GET THEIR HEADS OUT OF THEIR BUTTS!!
>>>
>>>Look, my communist friend, I am just as frustrated as you are, about a
>>>lot of things, but dammit, it's time to face facts.
>>>
>>>Allowing people to own, operate, and reap the rewards, for having
>>>their own businesses, as opposed to the State owns everything, is the
>>>only salvation for the world.
>>>
>>>And don't even try that hackneyed crap about, "Well, communism
>>>protects it's people by protecting them from the evil capitalists
>>>by...."
>>>It's all bullshit, and it's over.
>>>
>>>"I don't own a TV."
>>>Fine, just don't shoot the TV station owners that make a bazillion $'s
>>>from advertisements.
>>>You don't like to watch TV?, great, no skin off of my ass.
>>>
>>>"I don't own a car."
>>>Fine, just don't shoot the auto makers, the road builders, or any of
>>>the millions of workers that manufacture automobiles.
>>>You don;t want to drive a car?, no skin off my ass.
>>>
>>>"I don't whatever."
>>>Fine, and I mean this from the very bottom of my heart, don't shoot
>>>those that do make their daily bread from being involved in inventing,
>>>making, shipping, selling, buying, using, this mythical "whatever."
>>>You can live w/o "whatever", fine, just live & let die.
>>>
>>>And finally, a word about your attitude:
>>>We have known each other for years, through thick and thin, and yet,
>>>you seem to think that I am fodder for your diatribes.
>>>FTR, I am not, and never have been.
>>>
>>>I have never, even though I could, every day of the week, eat a meal
>>>costing US$300, and, truth be told, could also toss in a US$300
>>>breakfast, and a US$300 lunch, which adds up to US$6300 per week.
>>>And, I wouldn't even miss it.
>>>
>>>But I don't.
>>>Why?
>>>Because, despite what you might think, I give away literally tens of
>>>thousands of US$'s to charities of all sorts.
>>>
>>>You, on the other hand, only bitch about the big bad mean capitalists,
>>>and give not a damned penny to anyone.
>>>And yet, that too is OK with me, only please, don't tell me that I am
>>>a bad person, or that you might need to ignore my replies, by default.
>>>
>>>I calls them as I smells them, and veggie, you smell rotten.
>>>
>>>You want me out of your groups?
>>>Fine, just say the word.
>>>It;s not the first time you have kicked me out of them, but by all
>>>that is holy, it will be the last time.
>>>Get it?
>>
>>Just curious then am I understanding you right or am I misreading. Are you
>>saying kids of poor families should work instead of getting and education? IOW
>>keep an ignorant "underclass" of uneducated breeding uneductated who never gona
>>have the chance to get an education and get anywhere and make a buck for who???
>>Nike & Co? So that a couple of fat asses who enhirited a porfolio and never
>>moved a finger can get richer and richer?
>>
>>
>>-------------------------
>>Free Spirit
>>Founding Father of the Church of Personal Freedom
>>First Knight of the Knights of Personal Freedom.
>
>As you didn't SNIP my post in your reply, I will attempt to answer
>you.
>
>Now, let's just stop with the part that precedes your IOW, OK?
>The words I used were sufficient, IMO.
>
>I am not saying that kids from poorer families, or poorer nations,
>"should" do a damned thing.
>But, I am saying, that that is the way it is, as of today, 2004.
>
>If their parents, societies, or governments, have to allow them, or
>force them, to work in a sweatshop, at age 9 years, just so that the
>families of said children can eat, then so be it.
>I don't like it, you don't like it, and not many will admit to liking
>it; however, that's the way it is.
>
>*Should* they be allowed to have a decent education?
>I dunno, define "be allowed."
>
>If you are arguing that all children, regardless of race, creed,
>religion, or country of birth, have some "god given rights" to be
>educated, with said education being paid for by the "richer" nations,
>or families, then no, those kids have no such "rights."
>
>If you are asking me if I would like to see all children, given a
>decent education, then sure, why not?
>Raising the education of the world, IMO, can only benefit the world.
>But, am I going to pay a share of it, beyond that which I already pay
>for?
>Not if I can avoid it.
>
>Let me get personal:
>I have just finished eating a home cooked meal of shrimp and rice.
>I bought, and prepared, 6 large shrimp, at a cost of, including the
>cooking oil, etc, US$7.
>The rice, an excellent Basmati rice, purchased in10 Kilo quantities,
>cost me, perhaps US$0.50, for huge bowl.
>The red "shrimp" sauce, US$0.25.
>The dried mustard, perhaps US$0.10.
>The cooking oil, the heat, and the incidentals, cost me probably
>another US$1.00.
>
>So, for a cost of US$8.85, one single American male, ate a dinner of
>shrimp & rice.
>
>Sound about right?
>OK, now my sources in the international food relief programs, tell me
>that for US$10, I can help feed a family of 5 people, for an entire
>week!
>And, for another US$10, I can help supply an entire village with
>potable water for a week.
>Toss in another US$25 per month, and by golly, I can help supply the
>needed medicines, for an entire household, for 3 months!
>
>Well gee whiz, for about US$100, I can, should I choose to be a stand
>up fellow, allow an entire village of people, that live in a country
>that has been in existence for thousands of years, long before this
>evil capitalistic USA came into being, to continue to exist for
>another month.
>Well isn't that special?
>
>For the cost of 11 of my shrimp & rice dinners, I can be a hero.
>Fine, I'll do my part.
>
>But wait, there's even more I can do!
>For just a few more dollars, I can help to educate the children, of
>the families, that live in the countries, that can't even feed them.
>Sweet Jesus, does it get any better than this?
>
>No matter that the countries where these kids live, and refuse to
>change. hate my guts, and no matter that these countries have no
>respect for me as a person, as I am an American, and no matter that in
>years to come, their children will grow up to bomb & kill my family,
>or worse, I get to help educate them!
>
>Good lord above, where do I send my check?!!!
>
>No, not on my watch, not hardly.
>You, or anyone, that hasn't treated me like I owe you something, has
>an emergency, I'll help.
>
>You have a need for my help, and are not prone to call me names, or
>say what a crappy country I was born into, I'll help.
>
>In fact, I'll go you one better:
>I'll match, 2:1, every contribution of US$5,000 each, of every member
>of this group, up to US$50,000 on my part, if this groups members come
>up with the needed US$25,000, within 30 days from today, 01/06/2004.
>
>The proceeds from this exercise, will go to a charity, decided upon by
>all the contributors, with a majority rules vote being the final say.
>
>Let's be clear about this, OK?
>If 5 members of this group put up US$5,000 each, for a total of
>US$25,000, within 30 days form today, 01.06.2004, I will match it,
>2:1, for a total of US$50,000. and all that money, will go to a
>legitimate, recognized, charity, chosen by the contributors.
>
>Me, I kind of favor those rench cock suckers, Dr.'s Without Borders,
>but hey, that's just one of my favorites.
>
>dumb shit, and all of that.
>Let the big mouths in this group, that have been whimpering for years
>about how things should be done, and why me, why me?, and all that
>other shit, put up, or shut up, once and for all.
>
>Just think, Free Spirit, you too can be a part of Usenet history.
>Well?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>A dunce for all seasons.
>Founder & President, *Dunce of the Month Club*
>Coordinator, *Yaks for the Yakless, International*
>Voted *Usenets Most Trusted Person In History*, 1956 - 2004.
>Declared *The Hardest Working Dunce In All Of Usenet*, 1963 - 2004.
>Quote: "I have never met a dunce I've liked!"
>
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